Rotem Mounir Saouma Magis CNdP Blanc '11
- Thread starter Peter Creasey
- Start date
Jonathan Loesberg
Jonathan Loesberg
There's a tasting note for the 09 version of this wine on Wineberserker that compares it to a white Saumur Champigny. The tasting note also speaks of minerality, honeysuckle and bright acidity (though not of buttered popcorn). So if we don't get led astray by comparisons with other regions, you can see commonality.
Peter Creasey
Peter Creasey
Eric and Jonathan, I guess it boils down to the question of how much typicity matters.
I have yet to see anything less than a positive (often rave) review about this wine...apparently disregarding the fact of its apparent lack of typicity.
. . . . . Pete
I have yet to see anything less than a positive (often rave) review about this wine...apparently disregarding the fact of its apparent lack of typicity.
. . . . . Pete
Todd Abrams
Todd Abrams
So who's making "grenache of the north" style wines?
Michael Lewis
Michael Lewis
L'Anglore.
Jonathan Loesberg
Jonathan Loesberg
I don't have any complaints about making S. Rhone whites that have more minerality and bright acidity than we associate with those wines. Laurent Charvin, who has said that he doesn't like whites from the Southern Rhone, started making a white Cdr in 2011, in which he looks for a more bracing style and I quite like the wine.
I think comparing the wines to Burgundy or Loire whites will always raise terroir hackles though if we take the comparison seriously (I was actually saying that we ought not). I haven't tasted the wine, so I don't have an opinion, but I was reacting to the buttered popcorn note as well as the use of barriques.
I think comparing the wines to Burgundy or Loire whites will always raise terroir hackles though if we take the comparison seriously (I was actually saying that we ought not). I haven't tasted the wine, so I don't have an opinion, but I was reacting to the buttered popcorn note as well as the use of barriques.
The website stated that the winemakers would use lees to top up their barrels.
I have never heard of this being done. Is this a pretty unusual practice?
It seems like another way of manipulating flavors with cellar tricks, sometimes known as spoof.
Maybe not as blatant as using a commercial yeast to produce a desired flavor profile but still spoof.
I have never heard of this being done. Is this a pretty unusual practice?
It seems like another way of manipulating flavors with cellar tricks, sometimes known as spoof.
Maybe not as blatant as using a commercial yeast to produce a desired flavor profile but still spoof.
Jonathan Loesberg
Jonathan Loesberg
I read that they age it sur lies, which is not an uncommon practice, though I don't know how usual it is for S. Rhone whites. Could one top the wines with lies? Wouldn't gravity naturally make them fall to the bottom? Calling Eric again.
Peter Creasey
Peter Creasey
I have read that stirring the lees can increase the release of yeast compounds into the wine content and that stirring can result in a more substantive mouth feel and complexity of flavor.
Thus, simple (but perhaps erroneous?) logic might lead one to think that adding lees to the top can make sense.
. . . . Pete
This is from the link that Jeff posted above:
Rather than top off their barrels with more wine (as is needed due to evaporation and ‘sampling’), they top off with more lees. In fact, they keep extra lees from each cuvee that they make, i.e. they have some sixty separate batches of lees on hand!
It goes on to say that the lees are the "megaphone of the terroir”, amplifying the flavor signature of the particular cru.
I found all this pretty interesting. Maybe it is not really "spoof" and does reflect the terroir.
Would love to hear from Eric on this as well.
Well, toping up with lees will do a batonnage without any baton...
And increase the ration lees/clear wine.
What for? Make journalist talk maybe? In this case it seems to have the same effect than using concrete eggs but is a lot less expensive!
BTW, a very traditional way of toping up barrel in southern france was to use small galets (peebles?) or glass marbles.
Keeping a wine on gross lees is a very common practice for growers who don't want to use too much sulfur during ageing, since lees are highly reductive if their quality is good (good healthy grapes and easy going fermentations).
In the Rhone or anywhere else.
But in this case since they use quite a bit of sulfur at every stage of winemaking I would say that they are looking for the the well known tandem lees/sulfur that gives the "typical" hazelnut "grillé", that a lot of people consider to be the sign of high quality terroir chardonnay from Cote d'Or.
Considered as gross and faulty not long ago (80's) by traditionnal and knowledgeable growers.
Like bacon fat in northern rhone syrah...
And increase the ration lees/clear wine.
What for? Make journalist talk maybe? In this case it seems to have the same effect than using concrete eggs but is a lot less expensive!
BTW, a very traditional way of toping up barrel in southern france was to use small galets (peebles?) or glass marbles.
Keeping a wine on gross lees is a very common practice for growers who don't want to use too much sulfur during ageing, since lees are highly reductive if their quality is good (good healthy grapes and easy going fermentations).
In the Rhone or anywhere else.
But in this case since they use quite a bit of sulfur at every stage of winemaking I would say that they are looking for the the well known tandem lees/sulfur that gives the "typical" hazelnut "grillé", that a lot of people consider to be the sign of high quality terroir chardonnay from Cote d'Or.
Considered as gross and faulty not long ago (80's) by traditionnal and knowledgeable growers.
Like bacon fat in northern rhone syrah...
robert ames
robert ames
i guess that wine berserker doesn't know that saumur champigny is a cabernet franc-only appellation.
robert ames
robert ames
originally posted by mark e:
Really?
that is a saumur not a saumur champigny.
Jeff Grossman
Jeff Grossman
Close; the word is "pebbles" and they are usually as small as marbles. I thought galets were a bit bigger?
Bleh. I vaguely recall some awful CA Chardonnay (Aubert?) that was stirred and stirred and stirred until it was viscous and smoky and just awful.
Jonathan Loesberg
Jonathan Loesberg
Both galet and caillou might be translated as either pebble or stone depending on the size of the pebble or stone in question. I have heard both words refer to pebbles or stones somewhat larger than baseballs, although its true that in concept a galet is bigger than a caillou.
Jeff Grossman
Jeff Grossman
I'm feeling very specific this morning: if it's the size of a hazelnut it's a pebble; if it's the size of an orange it's a stone; if it's the size of a walnut well that's bigger than "pebble" in my book but I could see some wiggle room. How do galet and caillou shake out on my food-size chart?