Wine and Politics

[Rahsaan]

The notion that having a nice dinner with someone is a good indication of that person's character is ludicrous. People can be perfectly nice to *you* and perfectly odious to the rest of the world or perfectly horrendous in their politics.

I'm sure even Mao, Stalin and Hitler could find jovial dinner companions.

 

[VLM]

originally posted by Rahsaan:
The notion that having a nice dinner with someone is a good indication of that person's character is ludicrous. People can be perfectly nice to *you* and perfectly odious to the rest of the world or perfectly horrendous in their politics.

I'm sure even Mao, Stalin and Hitler could find jovial dinner companions.

Hitler!

 

[VLM]

originally posted by Cliff:
Taittinger.

Why?

 

[Jeff Grossman]

originally posted by VLM:

originally posted by Rahsaan:

originally posted by Christian Miller (CMM):
In a world full of alternative goods, there's no reason for me to provide my money (however small a portion) for creeps to recycle into bad causes.

And sadly, these days in France am not sure that FN support is narrow enough to make that list.

Yep, for better or worse, FN is a bigger tent housing all sorts of varying interests other than just jingoism (although there is still lots of that).

Putin as "defender of the Christian heritage of European civilization"?

 

[Cliff]

originally posted by VLM:

originally posted by Cliff:
Taittinger.

Why?

Pierre Taittinger founded the crypto-fascist Jeunesses patriotes in 1924. He was active in far right politics in interwar Paris and played an instrumental role in orchestrating the riot in 1934 that nearly brought down the Third Republic.

 

[Oswaldo Costa]

originally posted by Rahsaan:
The notion that having a nice dinner with someone is a good indication of that person's character is ludicrous. People can be perfectly nice to *you* and perfectly odious to the rest of the world or perfectly horrendous in their politics.

I'm sure even Mao, Stalin and Hitler could find jovial dinner companions.

In all fairness, he did say once or twice, so it's not just a nice dinner, and he did say that they have proven without a doubt that they are fine people, so the logic of the language does not leave room for skepticism.

 

[MarkS]

I suppose if any of us wants to be "pure", he should live off the grid, grow sustainable non GMO-vegetables, do not use fossil fuel, stay off the internet, do not use money, make your own clothes, do not do use any products which pollute through being made or used, etcetera. The road to being morally honest is, indeed, paved with potholes and perhaps too much for 21st century man to bear.

 

[VLM]

originally posted by Cliff:

originally posted by VLM:

originally posted by Cliff:
Taittinger.

Why?

Pierre Taittinger founded the crypto-fascist Jeunesses patriotes in 1924. He was active in far right politics in interwar Paris and played an instrumental role in orchestrating the riot in 1934 that nearly brought down the Third Republic.

Did not know that. Of all the big house Champagne, Tattinger Comptes is my favorite and by a pretty big margin. Do I need to boycott it?

 

[VLM]

originally posted by Jeff Grossman:

originally posted by VLM:

originally posted by Rahsaan:

originally posted by Christian Miller (CMM):
In a world full of alternative goods, there's no reason for me to provide my money (however small a portion) for creeps to recycle into bad causes.

And sadly, these days in France am not sure that FN support is narrow enough to make that list.

Yep, for better or worse, FN is a bigger tent housing all sorts of varying interests other than just jingoism (although there is still lots of that).

Putin as "defender of the Christian heritage of European civilization"?

I don't get that reference in relation to the FN.

The FN has a bunch of Tea Party like populist elements that are more about taxation and elites gaming the system than they are about anti-immigration and racism. My point was, you are going to end up with people that I very much like* whose wines people here very much like if you exclude everyone FN.

* To be 100% clear, I'm not talking about Eric, he's the product of an elite school and a socialist of some sort.

 

[Yixin]

I work with at least 5 FN-voting (not quite the same as supporting) vignerons. And some of them are fairly young.

 

[Jeff Grossman]

originally posted by VLM:

originally posted by Jeff Grossman:
Putin as "defender of the Christian heritage of European civilization"?

I don't get that reference in relation to the FN.

Quote from Marine.

 

[VLM]

originally posted by Yixin:
I work with at least 5 FN-voting (not quite the same as supporting) vignerons. And some of them are fairly young.

It's almost like a protest vote in some cases. Marine Le Pen has softened the image of the FN to the extent that I think some people feel OK voting for it.

 

[Rahsaan]

originally posted by VLM:

originally posted by Yixin:
I work with at least 5 FN-voting (not quite the same as supporting) vignerons. And some of them are fairly young.

It's almost like a protest vote in some cases. Marine Le Pen has softened the image of the FN to the extent that I think some people feel OK voting for it.

And quite frankly it's been that way for a while. They've been getting 10-15% in the first round of Presidentials since the 1980s, and not all of those voters are rabid racist anti-semites. Not that I'm defending the votes or the politics, but it is important to understand what is actually going on.

And clearly the recent expansion may go even further. A voir.

 

[Rahsaan]

originally posted by Oswaldo Costa:

originally posted by Rahsaan:
The notion that having a nice dinner with someone is a good indication of that person's character is ludicrous. People can be perfectly nice to *you* and perfectly odious to the rest of the world or perfectly horrendous in their politics.

I'm sure even Mao, Stalin and Hitler could find jovial dinner companions.

In all fairness, he did say once or twice, so it's not just a nice dinner, and he did say that they have proven without a doubt that they are fine people, so the logic of the language does not leave room for skepticism.

Indeed. I was not careful enough with the evidence!

 

[Sharon Bowman]

originally posted by MarkS:
... too much for 21st century man to bear.

Sexist.

 

[Sharon Bowman]

originally posted by VLM:
Of all the big house Champagne, Tattinger Comtes is my favorite and by a pretty big margin.

I more or less agree. But I also am of the mind that it is perfectly superfluous.

 

[MLipton]

originally posted by MarkS:
I suppose if any of us wants to be "pure", he should live off the grid, grow sustainable non GMO-vegetables, do not use fossil fuel, stay off the internet, do not use money, make your own clothes, do not do use any products which pollute through being made or used, etcetera. The road to being morally honest is, indeed, paved with potholes and perhaps too much for 21st century man to bear.

Straw man, Mark. No one here is arguing for a "pure" lifestyle, or even reducing a carbon footprint. Rather, the point here is whether people take into account the stated views of vignerons when deciding which wines to buy. Having grown up near Berkeley in the '60s, I am all too familiar with the "my karma is shinier than yours" form of one-upsmanship, but I did make a decision when I started making enough money to invest that I would try to steer my investments toward vehicles that didn't seem morally dubious to me. YMMV, of course, and speech that I consider repugnant might not be by others. Yet we all have some boundary to what we consider offensive ideas, so to that extent we can all make that judgement. Whether we choose to do so is what prompted my question.

Regarding FN votes, I wouldn't lump that in with those who post racist, homophobic or exophobic screeds. Who knows why they vote FN and what business is that of mine anyway? These others go out of their way to make their views public business, and it's those people I was thinking of when I asked my question.

Mark Lipton

 

[Jay Miller]

originally posted by VLM:

originally posted by Rahsaan:

originally posted by Christian Miller (CMM):
In a world full of alternative goods, there's no reason for me to provide my money (however small a portion) for creeps to recycle into bad causes.

And sadly, these days in France am not sure that FN support is narrow enough to make that list.

Yep, for better or worse, FN is a bigger tent housing all sorts of varying interests other than just jingoism (although there is still lots of that).

And certainly Marine has been doing what she can to distance the party from her father's more radical views. Still objectionable but not as much so as before.

 

[Ian Fitzsimmons]

originally posted by Yixin:
I work with at least 5 FN-voting (not quite the same as supporting) vignerons. And some of them are fairly young.

You have a list of names!?

Kidding. Anyway, purity is a hallmark of fascism.

 

[Cliff]

originally posted by VLM:

originally posted by Yixin:
I work with at least 5 FN-voting (not quite the same as supporting) vignerons. And some of them are fairly young.

It's almost like a protest vote in some cases. Marine Le Pen has softened the image of the FN to the extent that I think some people feel OK voting for it.

Right, but as she does that, she risks losing a hard core constituency. It will be interesting to see how it plays out. Sarkozy has a similar problem, coming from the center-right, trying to pick off as many of her voters as he can.

originally posted by VLM:
Did not know that. Of all the big house Champagne, Tattinger Comptes is my favorite and by a pretty big margin. Do I need to boycott it?

I like it, too. If you look closely at plenty of producers' politics, you would likely be unhappy. I can't say I impose this kind of criteria systematically. But, for me, it's a glaring case. Keep in mind I wrote my dissertation on interwar Paris politics.