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NWR: Side argument - Jonathan Franzen, great or shit?
- Thread starter Sharon Bowman
- Start date
Oswaldo Costa
Oswaldo Costa
originally posted by BJ:
I had forgotten this wonderful thread.
Anyone read Solar? It is weird how much he gets the climate change community mojo.
Will order a copy and get back.
Jonathan Loesberg
Jonathan Loesberg
originally posted by BJ:
I am really, really loath to admit this, but I'm on a John le Carre jag. Following on finishing all 20 books of O'Brien's saga.
God help me! Or Sharon!
No need to feel shame. They are very good spy novels as long as you don't start buying that they actually are more than that. The later work is ruined by his having come to believe he was a realist novelist.
originally posted by Oswaldo Costa:
Just finished On Chesil Beach, a small tragedy of British manners by the sometimes over-masterful Ian McKewan, a disturbingly touching read.
Did you read Atonement, O.?
Mark Lipton
Oswaldo Costa
Oswaldo Costa
originally posted by MLipton:
originally posted by Oswaldo Costa:
Just finished On Chesil Beach, a small tragedy of British manners by the sometimes over-masterful Ian McKewan, a disturbingly touching read.
Did you read Atonement, O.?
Mark Lipton
Yes, that was my first, and his talent for language got me hooked. Nutshell is also brilliant, but I think the prose there is a bit over-the-top self-indulgent, like Rushdie can be (at his brilliant worst). When one has such a powerful writing engine, one must be careful not to rev it up beyond the revolutions needed for the task at hand, otherwise it becomes showboating.
ps: one of LeCarre’s qualities is that he never showboats
Summer is fast slipping away. There still remains time for for a bit of light reading...
I had a week of no internet or phone service 4th of July week and read John Hodgman's "Vacationland" and Mark Richard's "House of Prayer No. 2".
As someone who used to vacation regularry in Maine I picked up on all the Maine jokes and character references in Vacationland. I couldn't help but read it in Hodgman's voice. It became a sort of long monologue. It had its moments.
Mark Richard's "Fishboy" has always been one of my favorite reads and for some reason there was a copy of his current (if 2012 is considered current) works, House of Prayer No. 2" an autobiography (I had no clue and and just picked up and started reading it). Well worth a read and do read Fishboy if you enjoy this.
The current read is Rushdie's "The Golden House". Having to wade through the contemporariness and Rushdie's prose is a bit of a challenge but I've got into the rhythm of it already.
I had a week of no internet or phone service 4th of July week and read John Hodgman's "Vacationland" and Mark Richard's "House of Prayer No. 2".
As someone who used to vacation regularry in Maine I picked up on all the Maine jokes and character references in Vacationland. I couldn't help but read it in Hodgman's voice. It became a sort of long monologue. It had its moments.
Mark Richard's "Fishboy" has always been one of my favorite reads and for some reason there was a copy of his current (if 2012 is considered current) works, House of Prayer No. 2" an autobiography (I had no clue and and just picked up and started reading it). Well worth a read and do read Fishboy if you enjoy this.
The current read is Rushdie's "The Golden House". Having to wade through the contemporariness and Rushdie's prose is a bit of a challenge but I've got into the rhythm of it already.
originally posted by Oswaldo Costa:
Just finished On Chesil Beach, a small tragedy of British manners by the sometimes over-masterful Ian McKewan, a disturbingly touching read.
Thanks to this thread I discovered McEwan and the clean forceful writing is perfect for me. Not sure I see the comparisons to Rushdie, who seems much more ornate and descriptive. But I do enjoy both. So that's good.
Just finished Chesil Beach and I agree it was disturbingly touching, especially towards the end. Very strong and renewed my faith. I started a few weeks ago with Amsterdam, which had enjoyable prose but the plot was shaky and the double-murder ending was way too contrived and ruined it all for me.
Jonathan Loesberg
Jonathan Loesberg
When McEwan is good, he is very good, but he can have his own form of ornateness. I am not a big fan of Chesil Beach or, for that matter, Atonement. But I did like Enduring, Saturday, Sweet Tooth, the Children's Act and almost all the early novels.
Jayson Cohen
Jayson Cohen
I have started a number of Rushdie’s novels in the last 30 years. I’ve really tried to work through the prose.
On the Le Carre realist novelist point, I haven’t read all of his novels in the past say 25 years, but most, and I’ve only felt a couple were infected with this and excessive self-indulgence or political bent. Now if I could just remember which. Except I do remember I really didn’t like The Constant Gardener.
I took a class in college in 1989 titled The Spy Novel, and my recollection is that the professor held up The Spy Who Came in From the Cold and two novels from Graham Greene (The Confidential Agent and The Human Factor) as the greatest books of the genre (in his view at the time), representing different eras of the spy novel. From Le Carre I have always been partial to the Smiley books.
BTW, my son had to read To Kill a Mockingbird for his summer reading. He read it and we listened to it on Audible (narrated by Sissy Spacek) during the drive to and from Maine. I hadn’t “read” it for about 35 years, and not since I was a young teenager and my world was different, and it really is fabulous and brilliantly written. It’s a great snapshot of a(n often ugly) time, place, and culture in American history, and it struck me deeply as an adult as it could not have when I was a kid.
I need something to read. But probably not something new. I’ve been getting my Dune itch. It’s a thing.
On the Le Carre realist novelist point, I haven’t read all of his novels in the past say 25 years, but most, and I’ve only felt a couple were infected with this and excessive self-indulgence or political bent. Now if I could just remember which. Except I do remember I really didn’t like The Constant Gardener.
I took a class in college in 1989 titled The Spy Novel, and my recollection is that the professor held up The Spy Who Came in From the Cold and two novels from Graham Greene (The Confidential Agent and The Human Factor) as the greatest books of the genre (in his view at the time), representing different eras of the spy novel. From Le Carre I have always been partial to the Smiley books.
BTW, my son had to read To Kill a Mockingbird for his summer reading. He read it and we listened to it on Audible (narrated by Sissy Spacek) during the drive to and from Maine. I hadn’t “read” it for about 35 years, and not since I was a young teenager and my world was different, and it really is fabulous and brilliantly written. It’s a great snapshot of a(n often ugly) time, place, and culture in American history, and it struck me deeply as an adult as it could not have when I was a kid.
I need something to read. But probably not something new. I’ve been getting my Dune itch. It’s a thing.
Jonathan Loesberg
Jonathan Loesberg
I agree with your spy professor, though I would add a couple of other Greene's to the list, Our Man in Havana (probably too funny for him to think it was great) and Gun for Sale (probably too noirish for him to include).
Oswaldo Costa
Oswaldo Costa
originally posted by Rahsaan:
originally posted by Oswaldo Costa:
Just finished On Chesil Beach, a small tragedy of British manners by the sometimes over-masterful Ian McKewan, a disturbingly touching read.
Thanks to this thread I discovered McEwan and the clean forceful writing is perfect for me. Not sure I see the comparisons to Rushdie, who seems much more ornate and descriptive. But I do enjoy both. So that's good.
Just finished Chesil Beach and I agree it was disturbingly touching, especially towards the end. Very strong and renewed my faith. I started a few weeks ago with Amsterdam, which had enjoyable prose but the plot was shaky and the double-murder ending was way too contrived and ruined it all for me.
From a formal pov, Rushdie and McEwan are quite different, the former having a surreal bent which sometimes puts him closer to Latin American magic realists, something McEwan never comes near. What I had in mind, and should have put more clearly, is that both (Rushdie frequently, and McEwan in his quite over the top Nutshell, and somewhat in Atonement) revel in their command and are rather show-offish about it, whereas writers like Philip Roth and Paul Auster (currently reading the latter's masterful 4321) have as much command, yet never revel in, never flex for the sheer sake of the flex. But Rushdie's Midnight's Children is still one of the most unforgettable books ever.
Jonathan Loesberg
Jonathan Loesberg
originally posted by Oswaldo Costa:
originally posted by Rahsaan:
originally posted by Oswaldo Costa:
Just finished On Chesil Beach, a small tragedy of British manners by the sometimes over-masterful Ian McKewan, a disturbingly touching read.
Thanks to this thread I discovered McEwan and the clean forceful writing is perfect for me. Not sure I see the comparisons to Rushdie, who seems much more ornate and descriptive. But I do enjoy both. So that's good.
Just finished Chesil Beach and I agree it was disturbingly touching, especially towards the end. Very strong and renewed my faith. I started a few weeks ago with Amsterdam, which had enjoyable prose but the plot was shaky and the double-murder ending was way too contrived and ruined it all for me.
From a formal pov, Rushdie and McEwan are quite different, the former having a surreal bent which sometimes puts him closer to Latin American magic realists, something McEwan never comes near. What I had in mind, and should have put more clearly, is that both (Rushdie frequently, and McEwan in his quite over the top Nutshell, and somewhat in Atonement) revel in their command and are rather show-offish about it, whereas writers like Philip Roth and Paul Auster (currently reading the latter's masterful 4321) have as much command, yet never revel in, never flex for the sheer sake of the flex. But Rushdie's Midnight's Children is still one of the most unforgettable books ever.
A much better expressed assessment of what I meant about McEwan. But I still don't think much of Chesil Beach.
originally posted by Oswaldo Costa:
What I had in mind, and should have put more clearly, is that both (Rushdie frequently, and McEwan in his quite over the top Nutshell, and somewhat in Atonement) revel in their command and are rather show-offish about it, whereas writers like Philip Roth and Paul Auster (currently reading the latter's masterful 4321) have as much command, yet never revel in, never flex for the sheer sake of the flex.
I understand that on an intellectual level, but not sure I can see how it plays out. Unless it means that Roth is much more plot driven, which may explain why I never took to him before. (Although I have thought about trying again)
But Rushdie's Midnight's Children is still one of the most unforgettable books ever.
Agreed. Was at the library two days ago choosing books for Hurricane Florence and was close to revisiting Midnight's Children, opted for Satanic Verses instead. (Although the way things are going, we may never actually lose power, so electronic pleasures may limit my reading time!)
originally posted by Jonathan Loesberg:
But I still don't think much of Chesil Beach.
You probably have a much more learned approach to the books than I do. I found the whole wedding night concept very interesting (especially from my 2018 perspective). And I enjoyed the writing. At times it was extremely frustrating that the characters were making so much out of nothing. But I suppose that is the source of drama! Especially when characters are young (and in the early 1960s).
Jonathan Loesberg
Jonathan Loesberg
Phillip Larken once said that sexual intercourse began on or about 1965. In contrast to Larken, Chesil Beach believes that.
Tristan Welles
Tristan Welles
originally posted by Jonathan Loesberg:
When McEwan is good, he is very good, but he can have his own form of ornateness. I am not a big fan of Chesil Beach or, for that matter, Atonement. But I did like Enduring, Saturday, Sweet Tooth, the Children's Act and almost all the early novels.
while trying to not seem trite, I would note that McEwan writes too much. Some ideas need more flesh, some ideas should have been reconsidered. I think an author of his capacity, had he simply set Atonement and Amsterdam aside for a bit and then reconsidered them, would have immediately reconsidered plot devices.
Keith Levenberg
Keith Levenberg
My favorite thing by Rushdie is a short story in East, West called "At the Auction of the Ruby Slippers." I suppose it's an example of that "surreal bent" - in fact, I'm still not sure what it's about, but it's a thing of beauty.
originally posted by Jayson Cohen:
I have started a number of Rushdie’s novels in the last 30 years. I’ve really tried to work through the prose.
On the Le Carre realist novelist point, I haven’t read all of his novels in the past say 25 years, but most, and I’ve only felt a couple were infected with this and excessive self-indulgence or political bent. Now if I could just remember which. Except I do remember I really didn’t like The Constant Gardener.
I took a class in college in 1989 titled The Spy Novel, and my recollection is that the professor held up The Spy Who Came in From the Cold and two novels from Graham Greene (The Confidential Agent and The Human Factor) as the greatest books of the genre (in his view at the time), representing different eras of the spy novel. From Le Carre I have always been partial to the Smiley books.
BTW, my son had to read To Kill a Mockingbird for his summer reading. He read it and we listened to it on Audible (narrated by Sissy Spacek) during the drive to and from Maine. I hadn’t “read” it for about 35 years, and not since I was a young teenager and my world was different, and it really is fabulous and brilliantly written. It’s a great snapshot of a(n often ugly) time, place, and culture in American history, and it struck me deeply as an adult as it could not have when I was a kid.
I need something to read. But probably not something new. I’ve been getting my Dune itch. It’s a thing.
John le Carre just came out with a Smiley reprise last year, A Legacy of Spies. He illuminates in a very fun way some of the classics, answering three decade old questions. It's less dense and more obvious and thus I'm sure a ploy to get today's readers to check the oldies/goodies out. I really enjoyed it, and there are some very fun and somewhat shocking twists.
While McEwan does seem to use too many flourishes in his slimmer works, and his longer books suffer from a lack of narrative propulsion, he's not the most show-offy writer (Barnes, perhaps?) nor the most obvious (Amis, the younger) nor the most insufferable (Rushdie). And Enduring Love-Amsterdam-Atonement-Saturday is a very strong streak.
Le Carre's Smiley books stand up much better to rereading than his more recent novels.
I don't get Auster.
Le Carre's Smiley books stand up much better to rereading than his more recent novels.
I don't get Auster.