XP: Written Word/English Language&Reading Material

The words in question, pannini, espresso, etc. are all English. They are borrowed from Italian, but they are English and treated as English. The French conjugate Googler as if it were a French verb (because it is) and not as if it were an English one, which it is not. I have never heard either pannino or cannolo except as pedantic jokes, which, as a pedant, I do enjoy.

I find it more interesting to try to decide whether the conjugation should be "the committee has decided," or "the committee have decided."
 
originally posted by mark e:
originally posted by Peter Creasey:

Cole, my understanding (not my thinking) is that you are right with "cannolo/cannoli".

My original post on this topic arose from my seeing biscottis as the plural and thinking that's just not right; thus, my seeking reference material. Having said that, I did some support for biscottis as the plural of biscotti...horrors!

. . . . Pete
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Honestly, I find the double plural far less annoying (to my ears, at least, accustomed to hearing Italian for years) than the use of the Italian plural (e.g., pannini) as a singular noun. Both are wrong, but that doesn't stop anyone from using them on menus.
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This reminds me of the American insistence on the singular of tamales being tamale, whereas in Mexico it is tamal.

Mark Lipton
 
originally posted by Jonathan Loesberg:
The words in question, pannini, espresso, etc. are all English. They are borrowed from Italian, but they are English and treated as English. The French conjugate Googler as if it were a French verb (because it is) and not as if it were an English one, which it is not. I have never heard either pannino or cannolo except as pedantic jokes, which, as a pedant, I do enjoy.

I find it more interesting to try to decide whether the conjugation should be "the committee has decided," or "the committee have decided."
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You raise an important point regarding the incorporation of loan words into English and thus being subject to English pluralization rules. In the same way, I bristle at the faux-educated pluralization of octopus and cactus treating them as second declension masculine nominative nouns (especially egregious in the case of Greek-derived octopus). If those same people were insistent on the use of datum and agendum, I might be more sympathetic.

Mark Lipton

ETA: Oh, and lest I forget: the worst offender, the haX0r-plural virii.
 
Mark, we have lots of Hispanics and Hispanic culture down this way and I cannot recall ever hearing "tamal" instead of singular "tamale".

. . . . . Pete
 
originally posted by Jonathan Loesberg:
I have never heard either pannino or cannolo except as pedantic jokes, which, as a pedant, I do enjoy.
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I'm guessing you have heard Paparazzo, though.
 
originally posted by Jonathan Loesberg:


I find it more interesting to try to decide whether the conjugation should be "the committee has decided," or "the committee have decided."
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Usage varies across the Atlantic.
I remember hearing an interview with John Lennon talking about how "the Clash are" a great band (or something similar). Are Cream a great band?
 
originally posted by Cole Kendall:
originally posted by Jonathan Loesberg:


I find it more interesting to try to decide whether the conjugation should be "the committee has decided," or "the committee have decided."
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Usage varies across the Atlantic.
I remember hearing an interview with John Lennon talking about how "the Clash are" a great band (or something similar). Are Cream a great band?
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While the word band is singular, the name of all rock bands is plural, obviously, including Cream. I believe Dr. Johnson established that rule.
 
originally posted by Jonathan Loesberg:
While the word band is singular, the name of all rock bands is plural, obviously, including Cream. I believe Dr. Johnson established that rule.
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I think the committee makes a decision while the committee members make decisions.

I always use data as a plural. One hardly ever speaks about one datum.

Do two Orange Julius equal one Orange Julii?

And, for those who remember Allan Sherman: One Hippopotami
 
originally posted by Jeff Grossman:
originally posted by Jonathan Loesberg:
While the word band is singular, the name of all rock bands is plural, obviously, including Cream. I believe Dr. Johnson established that rule.
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I think the committee makes a decision while the committee members make decisions.
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In British English, committee, as with other group nouns, is frequently conjugated as a plural. It's one of those weird rules like an hotel or an historian rather than a hotel or a historian.
 
originally posted by Jonathan Loesberg:
originally posted by Jeff Grossman:
originally posted by Jonathan Loesberg:
While the word band is singular, the name of all rock bands is plural, obviously, including Cream. I believe Dr. Johnson established that rule.
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I think the committee makes a decision while the committee members make decisions.
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In British English, committee, as with other group nouns, is frequently conjugated as a plural. It's one of those weird rules like an hotel or an historian rather than a hotel or a historian.
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This is something that stands out when reading British news/wine writing, etc. The convention focuses on the plurality of the group as opposed to the individuality of corporations and teams. More accurate, really, unless you go with "corporations are individuals." I sort of like it. I sort of like "they."
 
I don't know if this has been discussed here or not, but a big pet peeve of mine (that seems to be becoming even more prevalent) is people saying "not a problem" or "no problem" in response to "thank you". I hear it all the time now.

In my mind, the acceptable response is "you're welcome".

. . . . . Pete
 
French ways of saying you're welcome:

je vous en prie: I beg of you, which also means please.

de rien: it was nothing

pas de quoi: it was nothing

merci a vous in response to merci meaning something like I should be thanking you.

And probably a few dozen more. I see no reason why English should impoverish itself. Do you also object to "it was nothing," "think nothing of it," "thank YOU" and probably a few dozen others?
 
Jonathan, that is pertinent info that I guess I need to factor into my thinking on proper response to "thank you".

Having said that, it seems to me that, to the extent a generality can be made, the folks who mainly say "no problem" or "not a problem" are not the sort of people who would be aware of what you say. Maybe (probably?) the habit just got passed down over time.

And, no, you make another good point in that "it was nothing," "think nothing of it," "thank YOU" all are not objectionable.

. . . . Pete
 
jonathan--the reason that i find "you're welcome" a more gracious and desirable reply than "no problem" is that "no problem" implies that whatever you are being thanked for might have been a problem.

there a many niceties to be thanked for that could never have been a problem, so why give the chance for that to be implied?
 
More to the point, why should “you’re welcome” be the sccepted response to “thank you”? If anything, “no problem” is s more meaningful response than the idiomatic “you’re welcome.”

Mark Lipton, semantic contrarian-at-large
 
Mark, people tend to say "no problem" whether there is or is not a problem...it's just an artificial, knee-jerk response that seems cold.

There is a congeniality with "you're welcome" (as if you are grinning when saying it, even if you aren't).

But I'm still rethinking all of this (at least a little bit) after the points Jonathan made

. . . . . Pete
 
originally posted by robert ames:
jonathan--the reason that i find "you're welcome" a more gracious and desirable reply than "no problem" is that "no problem" implies that whatever you are being thanked for might have been a problem.

there a many niceties to be thanked for that could never have been a problem, so why give the chance for that to be implied?
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I take it this way: If I feel that I should thank you, then I have imposed upon you for whatever it was -- I got your attention, you listened and did something. As the person imposed-upon I can say "you're welcome (to my effort)" or "(it was) no problem".

I think y'all are really bored. Pull a cork, would'ja?
 
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