XP: Written Word/English Language&Reading Material

I'm totally with Adrian Morgan on this one: "snuck" is preferred when speaking because it sounds convincing -- my declaration of THAT person's subterfuge is all the more true because I can say he snuck! -- whereas written stuff tends to summon up shades of Grade-School Grammarians Past and it all has to look right on the page.

Kinda like Willy Clark says.
 
originally posted by Jonathan Loesberg:

Are you saying that languages don't evolve to be more regular?

yes. languages are massively non-linear systems that have evolved to support the efficient communication of (a) the small set of things that everyone says and (b) the unbounded set of things that almost no-one says. one consequence of this is that, these days at least, no-one learns a language in its entirety and language learning never ends.

irregularities support (a) -- and in serving to emphasize communicative contrasts, they also make them easier for kids to learn -- while regularities help solve the problems posed by (b) -- all the unattested forms that you will encounter and need to use (what shape should the plurals of all of those nouns you've yet to learn take, and what should their past tenses be when you verb them?).

hopefully one thing we all learned from the pandemic is that our monkey brains are shit at thinking about non-linear systems. a set of 100 or so exponentially distributed words comprises half of the words any english speaker ever says, with the rest of the language comprising a massively long tail of further types.

to put how hard this shit is to intuit into context, 10 years or so ago some dudes from harvard (including the beloved pinker) published an article (in science no less) in which they estimated the vocabulary of english -- including proper nouns -- as comprising 1,022,000 types in 2000. which sounds clever until you realize that languages have other cool statistical properties (such as bustiness, which means briefly that word frequencies are not the same as word probabilities) and with this in mind, you drag you knuckles over to the us census bureau and discover in its records that in 2000 there were 6,248,415 surnames (alone) in use in the us...

You are right, of course, that sneaked/snuck is an example of the opposite. But is it an outlier or normal? Without any data, it is my sense that most newly coined verbs in the two languages I speak follow the most usual forms of conjugation. Thus, for instance, to google in French is googler and not googlir, or, god help us, googlre. But--truly--I'd be happy to be shown I'm wrong.

see above. irregular forms are outliers by definition if you look at types, whereas they are often the majority if you look at tokens. this means that the data you seek likely won't come in the form you expect.

but here's a fun one. if were were to dive into another example of irregularization, dive is a word that has enjoyed a frequency boost in the past 100 years or so:


so if we were to drag our knuckles away from the census bureau and look at a speech corpus instead, what we would find is that americans overwhelmingly say 'dove' and write 'dived'.

fb.
 
originally posted by Peter Creasey:

originally posted by fatboy: buggered if i can make the url function on this bored work any more

Here you go...

URLtext.jpg
. . . . . Pete

it's all well and good quoting the faq at at the fat. if you could persuade it to work rather than delete all the text below, i might even thank you for it.

fb.
 
originally posted by MLipton:

So, is there not an overall drift to greater regularity? Is there some other, larger pattern of which I’m unaware?

Mark Lipton

see above. it depends on how you count your cookies. people have been speaking for hundreds of thousands of years. mass literacy is barely a century old. and when pointy heads study language evolution, they tend to look at text rather than speech.

to offer another humble anecdote, i haven't owned one of those magic boxes that allow moving pictures to appear in my *********** for decades. whereas in my childhood, they were ubiquitous (and the fantasy was one in every room). in those days i'd have called the magic box a 'telly' or a 'tv.' these days i'd say television. as, i suspect, would most other people. and we don't have to think about it, we just do it. it's almost as if our monkey brains were sensitive to information or some shit.

what that means for pinker and his grammar rules, i leave to you or another time. suffice it to say that its probably best not to put too much store in a man who would never knowingly let data get in the way of a good story.

fb.
 
I'll have to take your word on the statistics as I have not done the research and won't, since it isn't my job.

I doubt you'll find many fans of Pinker on this bored, though probably for different reasons than yours.

On televisions, while I never used the word telly and never much heard it in this country (I've the impression it is more UK than US), I still use the word TV, not for the genre of program but for the actual box in my home (even if we're all streaming, surely they are still there). Maybe I'm an outlier on that. God knows I take a perverse pleasure in being an outlier on begging the question and on split infinitives.

And while I don't question your statistics about irregularities, I have problems with logic. Why would they make things easier for kids to learn? They certainly confuse us adults.
 
originally posted by Jonathan Loesberg:

And while I don't question your statistics about irregularities, I have problems with logic. Why would they make things easier for kids to learn? They certainly confuse us adults.

which difference is easier to notice - go vs went or walk vs walked?

fb.
 
originally posted by Jonathan Loesberg:
I have problems with logic. Why would they make things easier for kids to learn? They certainly confuse us adults.

or to take another system that defies adult learning, in german the words for knife, fork and spoon are in different nouns classes. this makes articles informative about them, which is handy for reducing ambiguity at the dining table.

meanwhile, the words for pot, kettle and cauldron are in the same class. the patterns are statistical -- and the exceptions are high frequency -- but kids happily learn them even as they defy adult logic.

fb.
 
originally posted by fatboy:
originally posted by Jonathan Loesberg:

And while I don't question your statistics about irregularities, I have problems with logic. Why would they make things easier for kids to learn? They certainly confuse us adults.

which difference is easier to notice - go vs went or walk vs walked?

fb.

Easier to notice and easier to learn are two different things. I've heard more than one toddler who said he goed somewhere before he managed to have went there. Children learn irregular conjugations much faster than adults, god knows, just as they learn to speak languages more fluently than adults. But that doesn't mean that they learn irregularities more easily than they do regularities. And my, again, near uselessly anecdotal impression is the opposite.
 
originally posted by Jonathan Loesberg:


Easier to notice and easier to learn are two different things. I've heard more than one toddler who said he goed somewhere before he managed to have went there. Children learn irregular conjugations much faster than adults, god knows, just as they learn to speak languages more fluently than adults. But that doesn't mean that they learn irregularities more easily than they do regularities. And my, again, near uselessly anecdotal impression is the opposite.

thank god there's no science on this.

fb.
 
originally posted by fatboy:
originally posted by Jonathan Loesberg:


Easier to notice and easier to learn are two different things. I've heard more than one toddler who said he goed somewhere before he managed to have went there. Children learn irregular conjugations much faster than adults, god knows, just as they learn to speak languages more fluently than adults. But that doesn't mean that they learn irregularities more easily than they do regularities. And my, again, near uselessly anecdotal impression is the opposite.

thank god there's no science on this.

fb.

Why? Wouldn't you like to know? It makes it so much easier to call your antagonist a dope.
 
originally posted by fatboy:
originally posted by Jonathan Loesberg:


Easier to notice and easier to learn are two different things. I've heard more than one toddler who said he goed somewhere before he managed to have went there. Children learn irregular conjugations much faster than adults, god knows, just as they learn to speak languages more fluently than adults. But that doesn't mean that they learn irregularities more easily than they do regularities. And my, again, near uselessly anecdotal impression is the opposite.

thank god there's no science on this.

fb.

there may be no science but your favourite search engine learned to do exactly this deep into the night, in preparation for your hitting the search bar with your morning coffee
 
Am I to take it that there is science on this and it shows that toddlers don't mistakenly us regular past tenses for irregular ones as they learn language? And it can show me that I misheard when I heard toddlers say goed instead of went? I'm all ears.
 
originally posted by Peter Creasey:

If you're looking for a fun test that's both challenging and imminently doable, you might want to try...

Wordle

Hugely popular...and for a reason.

. . . . . Pete

Ouch, that one the spell checker wouldn't catch, but it's painful to read nevertheless.
 
originally posted by Oswaldo Costa:
originally posted by Peter Creasey:

If you're looking for a fun test that's both challenging and imminently doable, you might want to try...

Wordle

Hugely popular...and for a reason.

. . . . . Pete

Ouch, that one the spell checker wouldn't catch, but it's painful to read nevertheless.

Depends on how soon you intend to play it.
 
originally posted by Jay Miller:
originally posted by Oswaldo Costa:
originally posted by Peter Creasey:

If you're looking for a fun test that's both challenging and imminently doable, you might want to try...

Wordle

Hugely popular...and for a reason.

. . . . . Pete

Ouch, that one the spell checker wouldn't catch, but it's painful to read nevertheless.

Depends on how soon you intend to play it.

Touché!
 
Dictionary of Fine Distinctions: Nuances, Niceties, and Subtle Shades of Meaning -- Eli Burnstein

"This delightful book is a tribute to the genius of the human mind for conceptual precision and the beauty of the English language in capturing it. It resolves a great deal of puzzlement over confusable terms, and its endearing illustrations and lighthearted explanations multiply the satisfaction." —Steven Pinker, author of The Language Instinct and Rationality

So says Mr Pinker. I found it interesting but a good bit less than "delightful". Some wordsmiths may have a more favorable opinion on it.

. . . . . . Pete
 
Back
Top