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shout out for a great Bourgogne rouge cheapie
- Thread starter BJ
- Start date
Jonathan Loesberg
Jonathan Loesberg
originally posted by Jayson Cohen:
originally posted by Jonathan Loesberg:
The lawyers mean that the distinction in question has no legal relevance. If there is a distinction, then, by definition, there will be a difference. If there is no difference, the two things are identical. I have no problem with lawyers giving technical definitions of their own to terms (here a difference doesn't mean just a difference but a difference that is legally pertinent). God knows philosophers and literary critics do it all the time. But that doesn't mean they aren't changing dictionary definitions for your own purpose. If I were persnickity about syntax, I could argue that "distinction without a difference" is far more a contravention against it than same difference. I won't argue that because the phrase's meaning is resonant enough so that one of my professors in grad school once gave a talk (since become a chapter in a book) in which he spoke of a difference without a distinction and everyone knew what he meant.
Does your analysis rely on a faulty premise or at least an assumption? That the distinction that is the contextual subject is the same as the difference, or that the observer of the former is the same observer of the latter or can discern the same level of granularity as the latter. If you relax one of those assumptions, it seems to me there is in principle no oxymoron, as in the legal example.
1.4 is distinct from 1.3 to me but not to a computer that truncates decimals. And let’s not even start on quantum mechanical observation. Slippery slope we’ve been down before.
Or do you think by necessity, linguistically or syntactically, distinction and difference must refer to whether somehow objectively A and B are equal or not equal.
No one really uses the phrase in the way you describe, not even lawyers according to your first description of their usage. And, to be persnickity, the case you describe is still a distinction not relevant to you because beneath you ability to perceive it. You could as easily say that it's a difference not relevant to you because beneath your ability to perceive it. If you said, in this case, that it was a distinction without a difference in a paper, I would surely complain about your usage of the phrase, which always refers to a distinction that for some reason you don't think matters to the issue at hand.
Jayson Cohen
Jayson Cohen
[insert wink emoji (and administer ten lashes to me for violating Disorderly law)].
Likewise no one interprets the phrase as you have, but we can discuss next time you’re in town, using paper-napkin demonstratives, rather than continue to bore folks.
Likewise no one interprets the phrase as you have, but we can discuss next time you’re in town, using paper-napkin demonstratives, rather than continue to bore folks.
Ken Schramm
Ken Schramm
originally posted by Jonathan Loesberg:
If I were persnickity about syntax...
If we're not going to be persnickity about syntax here, I quit.
Jonathan Loesberg
Jonathan Loesberg
So if I were to say about any variance in the definitions of distinction and difference that it was a distinction without a difference, what would I be saying if I meant the phrase as I used it, and what would it mean if I used the phrase as you argue it is meant to be used, and would the distinction be one with a difference or would it be the same difference?
originally posted by mark e:
originally posted by Jayson Cohen:
What is drapeau d’eau?
Oswaldo, I have come to hate straight quotation marks. Personal preference. So not same diff! Just diff.
Agree on the quotation marks. Straight ones are not typographically correct.
The drapeau is splashing the tank with water O referred to (or more accurately putting a hose at the top of the tank and letting the water sheet down over it.)
I totally love this. They are using evaporative cooling - old school air conditioning. Uses the phase change of water from liquid to gas to cool the tank. Awesome, low tech, effective, zero electricity...
Same principle as a swamp cooler.
Jeff Grossman
Jeff Grossman
originally posted by mark e:
originally posted by Jayson Cohen:
Oswaldo, I have come to hate straight quotation marks. Personal preference. So not same diff! Just diff.
Agree on the quotation marks. Straight ones are not typographically correct
You say that now. Go look at your typewriter, if you still have one. So-called ambidextrous single- and double- quotation marks were created to reduce the number of keys on a typewriter. Early computer systems inherited this parsimony; the original ASCII tables contained only one single and one double.
originally posted by Jeff Grossman:
originally posted by mark e:
originally posted by Jayson Cohen:
Oswaldo, I have come to hate straight quotation marks. Personal preference. So not same diff! Just diff.
Agree on the quotation marks. Straight ones are not typographically correct
You say that now. Go look at your typewriter, if you still have one. So-called ambidextrous single- and double- quotation marks were created to reduce the number of keys on a typewriter. Early computer systems inherited this parsimony; the original ASCII tables contained only one single and one double.
Right. Though one can find the correct punctuation even on a computer though not on the typewriter. But having learned to manually set metal type for letterpress printing I was shown the difference.
Oswaldo Costa
Oswaldo Costa
Just one guy, but Occam himself preferred the ambidextrous quotation mark.
robert ames
robert ames
originally posted by BJ:
originally posted by mark e:
originally posted by Jayson Cohen:
What is drapeau d’eau?
Oswaldo, I have come to hate straight quotation marks. Personal preference. So not same diff! Just diff.
Agree on the quotation marks. Straight ones are not typographically correct.
The drapeau is splashing the tank with water O referred to (or more accurately putting a hose at the top of the tank and letting the water sheet down over it.)
I totally love this. They are using evaporative cooling - old school air conditioning. Uses the phase change of water from liquid to gas to cool the tank. Awesome, low tech, effective, zero electricity...
Same principle as a swamp cooler.
unless the air is quite dry, or the water is about the same temp as the tank, i think the cooling would be more convective than evaporative. if you were to wrap the tank in burlap whilst spraying it, and have a fan blowing on the tank, that would be more akin to a swamp cooler.
Jayson Cohen
Jayson Cohen
originally posted by robert ames:
originally posted by BJ:
originally posted by mark e:
originally posted by Jayson Cohen:
What is drapeau d’eau?
Oswaldo, I have come to hate straight quotation marks. Personal preference. So not same diff! Just diff.
Agree on the quotation marks. Straight ones are not typographically correct.
The drapeau is splashing the tank with water O referred to (or more accurately putting a hose at the top of the tank and letting the water sheet down over it.)
I totally love this. They are using evaporative cooling - old school air conditioning. Uses the phase change of water from liquid to gas to cool the tank. Awesome, low tech, effective, zero electricity...
Same principle as a swamp cooler.
unless the air is quite dry, or the water is about the same temp as the tank, i think the cooling would be more convective than evaporative. if you were to wrap the tank in burlap whilst spraying it, and have a fan blowing on the tank, that would be more akin to a swamp cooler.
One could eschew modern temp control on principal but that’s a lot of water to waste for a highly inefficient cooling mechanism. I would want to see a real environmental assessment before concluding the effect isn’t worse than modern cooling using electricity and an efficient heat exchanger.
robert ames
robert ames
in low humidity evaporative cooling is a good bit more efficient than running a refrigeration unit, and ever so much simpler. of course the closer the dew point of the ambient air gets to the actual temperature, the less cooling you get for the same amount of work.
Evap cooling with no fan = zero energy. For example a waterfall on a hot summer day. Not just radiant cooling, but actual cooling caused by the water phase change from liquid to gas.
There are folks starting to use this technique in an enclosed vertical pipe with collection well at bottom, mister at top, little recirc pump...DPR Phoenix office is a good example.
There are folks starting to use this technique in an enclosed vertical pipe with collection well at bottom, mister at top, little recirc pump...DPR Phoenix office is a good example.
Jayson Cohen
Jayson Cohen
originally posted by robert ames:
in low humidity evaporative cooling is a good bit more efficient than running a refrigeration unit, and ever so much simpler. of course the closer the dew point of the ambient air gets to the actual temperature, the less cooling you get for the same amount of work.
My understanding of your comment, which would be my understanding of the mechanism, is we are not really talking about evaporative cooling, not in any meaningful or optimized sense. But maybe I misunderstood. Anyway a lot of hand waving, not proof of energy efficiency or environmental effect of a guy standing over a tank with a hose compared to refrigeration. I actually wouldn’t presume one way or the other. Just seems inefficient off the cuff.
Jayson Cohen
Jayson Cohen
originally posted by BJ:
Evap cooling with no fan = zero energy. For example a waterfall on a hot summer day. Not just radiant cooling, but actual cooling caused by the water phase change from liquid to gas.
There are folks starting to use this technique in an enclosed vertical pipe with collection well at bottom, mister at top, little recirc pump...DPR Phoenix office is a good example.
Not to be a hard ass but the thermodynamics of evaporative cooling isn’t in dispute, just its applicability and application here. It’s also not zero energy for an overall process. That would violate the second law. And even the use of the kinetic energy of the liquid to change the water phase involves a highly imperfect heat transfer problem.
But I’m still not sure that evaporative cooling is what we’re talking about in this technique.
Jeff Grossman
Jeff Grossman
Indeed, if all that is being done is to run water over a hot object then you are just getting some amount of heat transferred directly to the water during its sojourn across the surface.originally posted by Jayson Cohen:
But I’m still not sure that evaporative cooling is what we’re talking about in this technique.
True evaporative cooling is much more complicated: carumba
Oswaldo Costa
Oswaldo Costa
originally posted by Jayson Cohen:
originally posted by robert ames:
originally posted by BJ:
originally posted by mark e:
originally posted by Jayson Cohen:
What is drapeau d’eau?
Oswaldo, I have come to hate straight quotation marks. Personal preference. So not same diff! Just diff.
Agree on the quotation marks. Straight ones are not typographically correct.
The drapeau is splashing the tank with water O referred to (or more accurately putting a hose at the top of the tank and letting the water sheet down over it.)
I totally love this. They are using evaporative cooling - old school air conditioning. Uses the phase change of water from liquid to gas to cool the tank. Awesome, low tech, effective, zero electricity...
Same principle as a swamp cooler.
unless the air is quite dry, or the water is about the same temp as the tank, i think the cooling would be more convective than evaporative. if you were to wrap the tank in burlap whilst spraying it, and have a fan blowing on the tank, that would be more akin to a swamp cooler.
One could eschew modern temp control on principal but that’s a lot of water to waste for a highly inefficient cooling mechanism. I would want to see a real environmental assessment before concluding the effect isn’t worse than modern cooling using electricity and an efficient heat exchanger.
The use of principal in place of principle is as widespread as compliment for complement, and will soon see it enshrined by Merriam-Webster.
Jayson Cohen
Jayson Cohen
originally posted by Oswaldo Costa:
originally posted by Jayson Cohen:
originally posted by robert ames:
originally posted by BJ:
originally posted by mark e:
originally posted by Jayson Cohen:
What is drapeau d’eau?
Oswaldo, I have come to hate straight quotation marks. Personal preference. So not same diff! Just diff.
Agree on the quotation marks. Straight ones are not typographically correct.
The drapeau is splashing the tank with water O referred to (or more accurately putting a hose at the top of the tank and letting the water sheet down over it.)
I totally love this. They are using evaporative cooling - old school air conditioning. Uses the phase change of water from liquid to gas to cool the tank. Awesome, low tech, effective, zero electricity...
Same principle as a swamp cooler.
unless the air is quite dry, or the water is about the same temp as the tank, i think the cooling would be more convective than evaporative. if you were to wrap the tank in burlap whilst spraying it, and have a fan blowing on the tank, that would be more akin to a swamp cooler.
One could eschew modern temp control on principal but that’s a lot of water to waste for a highly inefficient cooling mechanism. I would want to see a real environmental assessment before concluding the effect isn’t worse than modern cooling using electricity and an efficient heat exchanger.
The use of principal in place of principle is as widespread as compliment for complement, and will soon see it enshrined by Merriam-Webster.
Ugh. Late night? Does 8 pm count? Will leave my error for posterity.
Oswaldo Costa
Oswaldo Costa
originally posted by Jayson Cohen:
originally posted by Oswaldo Costa:
originally posted by Jayson Cohen:
originally posted by robert ames:
originally posted by BJ:
originally posted by mark e:
originally posted by Jayson Cohen:
What is drapeau d’eau?
Oswaldo, I have come to hate straight quotation marks. Personal preference. So not same diff! Just diff.
Agree on the quotation marks. Straight ones are not typographically correct.
The drapeau is splashing the tank with water O referred to (or more accurately putting a hose at the top of the tank and letting the water sheet down over it.)
I totally love this. They are using evaporative cooling - old school air conditioning. Uses the phase change of water from liquid to gas to cool the tank. Awesome, low tech, effective, zero electricity...
Same principle as a swamp cooler.
unless the air is quite dry, or the water is about the same temp as the tank, i think the cooling would be more convective than evaporative. if you were to wrap the tank in burlap whilst spraying it, and have a fan blowing on the tank, that would be more akin to a swamp cooler.
One could eschew modern temp control on principal but that’s a lot of water to waste for a highly inefficient cooling mechanism. I would want to see a real environmental assessment before concluding the effect isn’t worse than modern cooling using electricity and an efficient heat exchanger.
The use of principal in place of principle is as widespread as compliment for complement, and will soon see it enshrined by Merriam-Webster.
Ugh. Late night? Does 8 pm count? Will leave my error for posterity.
We all take solace from each other's mistakes.