robert ames
robert ames
nice to know, but it might be that the question was actually directed to jonathan.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
Beaucastel Dinner (menu)
- Thread starter Peter Creasey
- Start date
nice to know, but it might be that the question was actually directed to jonathan.
Christian Miller (CMM)
Christian Miller
originally posted by mark e:
originally posted by Jonathan Loesberg:
Just to help you in your research, I also like Domaine la Garrigue. Their Gigondas isn't available in the U.S. but the Vacqueyras is pretty easily found.
Slightly off topic - but you seem to be one of the few CnP aficionados on the board - which estate(s) might you suggest for someone who likes Grenache but eschews wood, high alcohol and extraction? Which recent vintage(s)? 2014?
Way off the usual tracks, have you had Ken Forrester's "The Gypsy"? The 2010 was dominated by Grenache with intense but not kirschy slightly herbal fruit, yet remarkably light on its feet. I don't know if current vintages resemble it, but I was very impressed.
Jonathan Loesberg
Jonathan Loesberg
originally posted by mark e:
originally posted by Jonathan Loesberg:
Just to help you in your research, I also like Domaine la Garrigue. Their Gigondas isn't available in the U.S. but the Vacqueyras is pretty easily found.
Slightly off topic - but you seem to be one of the few CnP aficionados on the board - which estate(s) might you suggest for someone who likes Grenache but eschews wood, high alcohol and extraction? Which recent vintage(s)? 2014?
Sorry for the delay in response. I'm on French time. For Northerners,and two of my favorites, Charvin and Ferrand. More Southern are Vieux Telegraphe, Pegau and Eddie Feraud (I think the name recently changed to Feraud et Fils for vintages since maybe 16). Mourre de Tendre is changing some but the Cdp and the Cotes de Rhone VV are still great wines than can take a lot of aging. Also the base cuvee of Bois de Boursan (there Cuvee Felix is a well made wine but it is intentionally made in a somewhat riper style, though not Cambie levels, so YMMV). Banneret makes a very good wine too but it is hard to find and not cheap when you do find it. Marcoux is also very good, but also chere these days. When Chambers Street brings in Pierre Andre, that is another wine taking a peck at. I assume I don't have to list Rayas, which now costs as nearly as much as a first growth. Oh, and one more that might sound dangerous and isn't. Chappelle St. Theodoric, which is made by Baptiste Grangeon from Northern vineyards owned by Peter Weygandt can be very good as a Northern style wine. Be aware that in addition to not liking oak and ultra-ripeness, I prefer wines that are not de-stemmed, though some wines on this list do some de-stemming.
As to vintages, there are very nice 14s to be found (Chapelle St. Theodoric made a very good one), but you should buy with care. The two best recent vintages that have some good acidity and structure even while being warm years were 2010 and 2016, For softer vintages, 2011 is turning out very well, depending on the domaine. And I could drink the 08s from Charvin and Ferrand day and night.
originally posted by Jonathan Loesberg:
originally posted by mark e:
originally posted by Jonathan Loesberg:
Just to help you in your research, I also like Domaine la Garrigue. Their Gigondas isn't available in the U.S. but the Vacqueyras is pretty easily found.
Slightly off topic - but you seem to be one of the few CnP aficionados on the board - which estate(s) might you suggest for someone who likes Grenache but eschews wood, high alcohol and extraction? Which recent vintage(s)? 2014?
Sorry for the delay in response. I'm on French time. For Northerners,and two of my favorites, Charvin and Ferrand. More Southern are Vieux Telegraphe, Pegau and Eddie Feraud (I think the name recently changed to Feraud et Fils for vintages since maybe 16). Mourre de Tendre is changing some but the Cdp and the Cotes de Rhone VV are still great wines than can take a lot of aging. Also the base cuvee of Bois de Boursan (there Cuvee Felix is a well made wine but it is intentionally made in a somewhat riper style, though not Cambie levels, so YMMV). Banneret makes a very good wine too but it is hard to find and not cheap when you do find it. Marcoux is also very good, but also chere these days. When Chambers Street brings in Pierre Andre, that is another wine taking a peck at. I assume I don't have to list Rayas, which now costs as nearly as much as a first growth. Oh, and one more that might sound dangerous and isn't. Chappelle St. Theodoric, which is made by Baptiste Grangeon from Northern vineyards owned by Peter Weygandt can be very good as a Northern style wine. Be aware that in addition to not liking oak and ultra-ripeness, I prefer wines that are not de-stemmed, though some wines on this list do some de-stemming.
As to vintages, there are very nice 14s to be found (Chapelle St. Theodoric made a very good one), but you should buy with care. The two best recent vintages that have some good acidity and structure even while being warm years were 2010 and 2016, For softer vintages, 2011 is turning out very well, depending on the domaine. And I could drink the 08s from Charvin and Ferrand day and night.
Thanks very much. Quite helpful. Generally, there are quite a few past vintages available here in Norway from our only retailer, Vinmonopolet. Yes, that is the state-run chain of wine shops all over Oslo (and Norway). They have an amazing selection unlike what most people might think. Surprisingly, too, prices are often lower than the US, particularly on more expensive wines.
Oswaldo Costa
Oswaldo Costa
Very useful response, though Pegau hardly eschews high alcohol.
originally posted by Oswaldo Costa:
Very useful response, though Pegau hardly eschews high alcohol.
Many in the list don't. We have the advantage that the exact (or close to it) ABV is listed on the label, instead of a range. For example, The Dom. Marcoux Chateauneuf-du-Pape Vieilles Vignes 2011 is 16%.
Jonathan Loesberg
Jonathan Loesberg
originally posted by Peter Creasey:
Roger Sabon Olivets, Les Cailloux, Mont-Olivet Mt Papet, Font de Michelle, Deus-Ex Machina St Jean, Vieux Donjon, Rotem Mounir aouma Omnia, Texier VV, Vieux Telegraphe La Crau, etc., etc.
. . . Pete
Caillloux, Mt. Olivet, Clos St. Jean (and especially the special curves named here), and Vieux Donjon are all Cambie wines. Font Michelle definitely sees new oak. These wines have their fans but they are not what Mark was asking for. I have no experience with Clos Saouma, which is what I think Pete means by Rotem etc.Texier makes a great CdP and is also worth seeking out. I don't have enough experience with Roger Sabon to say one way or the other.
Christian Miller (CMM)
Christian Miller
I think it's the wrong neighborhood, if you want to avoid high alcohol.originally posted by Oswaldo Costa:
Very useful response, though Pegau hardly eschews high alcohol.
Jonathan Loesberg
Jonathan Loesberg
If you want to avoid high alcohol, you need to go elsewhere. There are threads on Olga Raffault, whose wines I love. Last summer, it got to 44C around here. There's no getting around climate change.
Jeff Grossman
Jeff Grossman
Are there no heat-resistant cultivars of grenache? Ones that won't run wild making sugar?
Jonathan Loesberg
Jonathan Loesberg
I don't know if anyone's working on that. I must say that neither Laurent Charvin not Phillips Bravay, both of whom do not seek surmaturite, at least as it is defined here, tend to accept alcohol levels as the cost of doing business. And both of them made wines in the nineties when one still saw levels below 14%. Given the frequent belief here among many vignerons that higher alcohol is a sign of satisfactory ripeness I don't know who would be looking for such a cultivar. Maybe Comrade Texier knows more than I do about this.
Oswaldo Costa
Oswaldo Costa
originally posted by Jonathan Loesberg:
If you want to avoid high alcohol, you need to go elsewhere. There are threads on Olga Raffault, whose wines I love. Last summer, it got to 44C around here. There's no getting around climate change.
I was under the underinformed impression that Charvin regularly clocked in at around 13.5%, so if it's possible for him, why wouldn't it be for others (if so desired)?
Christian Miller (CMM)
Christian Miller
originally posted by Jonathan Loesberg:
I don't know if anyone's working on that. I must say that neither Laurent Charvin not Phillips Bravay, both of whom do not seek surmaturite, at least as it is defined here, tend to accept alcohol levels as the cost of doing business. And both of them made wines in the nineties when one still saw levels below 14%. Given the frequent belief here among many vignerons that higher alcohol is a sign of satisfactory ripeness I don't know who would be looking for such a cultivar. Maybe Comrade Texier knows more than I do about this.
As I recall, Avril humidified their cellars to encourage a greater rate of alcohol evaporation relative to water.
Jonathan Loesberg
Jonathan Loesberg
originally posted by Oswaldo Costa:
originally posted by Jonathan Loesberg:
If you want to avoid high alcohol, you need to go elsewhere. There are threads on Olga Raffault, whose wines I love. Last summer, it got to 44C around here. There's no getting around climate change.
I was under the underinformed impression that Charvin regularly clocked in at around 13.5%, so if it's possible for him, why wouldn't it be for others (if so desired)?
Because it's not the case. Charvin regularly comes in between 14.5 and 15%. Really I don't know why you singled out Pegau. Unless they are going to 16-17, they are pretty much at the new normal.
Jonathan Loesberg
Jonathan Loesberg
originally posted by Christian Miller (CMM):
originally posted by Jonathan Loesberg:
I don't know if anyone's working on that. I must say that neither Laurent Charvin not Phillips Bravay, both of whom do not seek surmaturite, at least as it is defined here, tend to accept alcohol levels as the cost of doing business. And both of them made wines in the nineties when one still saw levels below 14%. Given the frequent belief here among many vignerons that higher alcohol is a sign of satisfactory ripeness I don't know who would be looking for such a cultivar. Maybe Comrade Texier knows more than I do about this.
As I recall, Avril humidified their cellars to encourage a greater rate of alcohol evaporation relative to water.
Maybe, but it's not working for them. Clos des Papes has been rocket fuel since 2003. Or at least until I stopped trying them.
originally posted by Jonathan Loesberg:
originally posted by Peter Creasey:
Roger Sabon Olivets, Les Cailloux, Mont-Olivet Mt Papet, Font de Michelle, Deus-Ex Machina St Jean, Vieux Donjon, Rotem Mounir aouma Omnia, Texier VV, Vieux Telegraphe La Crau, etc., etc.
. . . Pete
Caillloux, Mt. Olivet, Clos St. Jean (and especially the special curves named here), and Vieux Donjon are all Cambie wines. Font Michelle definitely sees new oak. These wines have their fans but they are not what Mark was asking for. I have no experience with Clos Saouma, which is what I think Pete means by Rotem etc.Texier makes a great CdP and is also worth seeking out. I don't have enough experience with Roger Sabon to say one way or the other.
I was curious about Cambie, not really knowing much about him. He seems to be omnipresent in the Southern Rhone. Reading an interview, I noted that he favors full ripeness (or should I read surmaturité?). In any case, his own Les Halos de Jupiter Chateauneuf-du-Pape 2014 is >16.5% ABV.
On a slightly related note, I know that in California - at least in the past - winemakers needed to use selected yeasts to restart stuck fermentations, particularly in musts with very high Brix. I had asked a number of people whether they thought that it might be possible to select a yeast with a very poor conversion ratio for such musts, but they had no idea. Alas, the yeasts that get to the finish line (say up to 17% or so) are very efficient converters of sugar to alcohol. Perhaps Comrade Brézème could comment on this?
Oswaldo Costa
Oswaldo Costa
originally posted by Jonathan Loesberg:
originally posted by Oswaldo Costa:
originally posted by Jonathan Loesberg:
If you want to avoid high alcohol, you need to go elsewhere. There are threads on Olga Raffault, whose wines I love. Last summer, it got to 44C around here. There's no getting around climate change.
I was under the underinformed impression that Charvin regularly clocked in at around 13.5%, so if it's possible for him, why wouldn't it be for others (if so desired)?
Because it's not the case. Charvin regularly comes in between 14.5 and 15%. Really I don't know why you singled out Pegau. Unless they are going to 16-17, they are pretty much at the new normal.
Then the answer to Mark's three-part question should have been oubliezaboutit. Sauf maybe Texier in some vintages.
Jonathan Loesberg
Jonathan Loesberg
originally posted by Oswaldo Costa:
originally posted by Jonathan Loesberg:
originally posted by Oswaldo Costa:
originally posted by Jonathan Loesberg:
If you want to avoid high alcohol, you need to go elsewhere. There are threads on Olga Raffault, whose wines I love. Last summer, it got to 44C around here. There's no getting around climate change.
I was under the underinformed impression that Charvin regularly clocked in at around 13.5%, so if it's possible for him, why wouldn't it be for others (if so desired)?
Because it's not the case. Charvin regularly comes in between 14.5 and 15%. Really I don't know why you singled out Pegau. Unless they are going to 16-17, they are pretty much at the new normal.
Then the answer to Mark's three-part question should have been oubliezaboutit. Sauf maybe Texier in some vintages.
If alcohol is a line in the sand, you would be right. As you can see from Mark's responses, he is interested in what is out there.
Christian Miller (CMM)
Christian Miller
originally posted by mark e:
originally posted by Jonathan Loesberg:
originally posted by Peter Creasey:
Roger Sabon Olivets, Les Cailloux, Mont-Olivet Mt Papet, Font de Michelle, Deus-Ex Machina St Jean, Vieux Donjon, Rotem Mounir aouma Omnia, Texier VV, Vieux Telegraphe La Crau, etc., etc.
. . . Pete
Caillloux, Mt. Olivet, Clos St. Jean (and especially the special curves named here), and Vieux Donjon are all Cambie wines. Font Michelle definitely sees new oak. These wines have their fans but they are not what Mark was asking for. I have no experience with Clos Saouma, which is what I think Pete means by Rotem etc.Texier makes a great CdP and is also worth seeking out. I don't have enough experience with Roger Sabon to say one way or the other.
I was curious about Cambie, not really knowing much about him. He seems to be omnipresent in the Southern Rhone. Reading an interview, I noted that he favors full ripeness (or should I read surmaturité?). In any case, his own Les Halos de Jupiter Chateauneuf-du-Pape 2014 is >16.5% ABV.
On a slightly related note, I know that in California - at least in the past - winemakers needed to use selected yeasts to restart stuck fermentations, particularly in musts with very high Brix. I had asked a number of people whether they thought that it might be possible to select a yeast with a very poor conversion ratio for such musts, but they had no idea. Alas, the yeasts that get to the finish line (say up to 17% or so) are very efficient converters of sugar to alcohol. Perhaps Comrade Brézème could comment on this?
My impression from one chemistry prof/winemaker I knew was that the range of conversion ratios feasible for yeasts was fairly limited.
robert ames
robert ames
originally posted by Christian Miller (CMM):
originally posted by mark e:
originally posted by Jonathan Loesberg:
originally posted by Peter Creasey:
Roger Sabon Olivets, Les Cailloux, Mont-Olivet Mt Papet, Font de Michelle, Deus-Ex Machina St Jean, Vieux Donjon, Rotem Mounir aouma Omnia, Texier VV, Vieux Telegraphe La Crau, etc., etc.
. . . Pete
Caillloux, Mt. Olivet, Clos St. Jean (and especially the special curves named here), and Vieux Donjon are all Cambie wines. Font Michelle definitely sees new oak. These wines have their fans but they are not what Mark was asking for. I have no experience with Clos Saouma, which is what I think Pete means by Rotem etc.Texier makes a great CdP and is also worth seeking out. I don't have enough experience with Roger Sabon to say one way or the other.
I was curious about Cambie, not really knowing much about him. He seems to be omnipresent in the Southern Rhone. Reading an interview, I noted that he favors full ripeness (or should I read surmaturité?). In any case, his own Les Halos de Jupiter Chateauneuf-du-Pape 2014 is >16.5% ABV.
On a slightly related note, I know that in California - at least in the past - winemakers needed to use selected yeasts to restart stuck fermentations, particularly in musts with very high Brix. I had asked a number of people whether they thought that it might be possible to select a yeast with a very poor conversion ratio for such musts, but they had no idea. Alas, the yeasts that get to the finish line (say up to 17% or so) are very efficient converters of sugar to alcohol. Perhaps Comrade Brézème could comment on this?
My impression from one chemistry prof/winemaker I knew was that the range of conversion ratios feasible for yeasts was fairly limited.
it's been a while, so things may have changed, but the word on the street was that cultured yeasts as a rule are more efficient than wild yeasts in converting sugar to alcohol.
not sure what you mean by cambie being omnipresent, but it would be wrong to suggest that all cndp vignerons use him or seek the surmaturite that he espouses. and his influence may be waning as rmp jr's is as well. for instance, santa duc left the cambie camp a few years back and is now back to a more traditional approach, per jll.