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a pleasant enough way to spend an afternoon, anyway.
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EPL Season
- Thread starter VLM
- Start date
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a pleasant enough way to spend an afternoon, anyway.
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Schizophrenia
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i like to think i can keep myself company.
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you are not alone
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ever.
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hahahahaha.
song was really excellent today.
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song was really excellent today.
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I hear rumours Colin Firth is turning down the part of fatboy in Fever Pitch 2
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originally posted by VLM:
I hope you are joking about Song, he was terrible.
song played his heart out in an otherwise very disjointed and overrun midfield. you'd have to understand football to appreciate it.
best stick to counting shots and saves, eh?
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originally posted by fatboy:
originally posted by VLM:
I hope you are joking about Song, he was terrible.
song played his heart out in an otherwise very disjointed and overrun midfield. you'd have to understand football to appreciate it.
best stick to counting shots and saves, eh?
eh. this was a bit of a toolish reply. sorry.
but if you watched manure deal with the noisy neighbors this afternoon, i hope this will make more sense. in the middle of the park, it isn't just about worrying about how people play when things aren't working -- which, individually, verges on impossible to do -- it is more how they keep going, and how they stay mentally alive so that they can pick up the game in a second when the tide changes. it is a fucking hard thing to do.
for me, song did the whole shebang outstandingly yesterday.
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originally posted by fatboy:
originally posted by fatboy:
originally posted by VLM:
I hope you are joking about Song, he was terrible.
song played his heart out in an otherwise very disjointed and overrun midfield. you'd have to understand football to appreciate it.
best stick to counting shots and saves, eh?
eh. this was a bit of a toolish reply. sorry.
but if you watched manure deal with the noisy neighbors this afternoon, i hope this will make more sense. in the middle of the park, it isn't just about worrying about how people play when things aren't working -- which, individually, verges on impossible to do -- it is more how they keep going, and how they stay mentally alive so that they can pick up the game in a second when the tide changes. it is a fucking hard thing to do.
for me, song did the whole shebang outstandingly yesterday.
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That's OK. I didn't see what you did. Huffing and puffing is something that takes an Englishman to appreciate, I suppose.
Song's job is to provide the platform to move forward by shielding the bumbling Koscielny and Vermaelen (which I don't really understand but my current theory is that they are too similar to really pair well together). The easiest way to accomplish this is not to give up possession either through poor passing decisions or to be outright dispossessed. I give him license to try to make the killer pass from time to time, but he gave away possession with poor decisions time after time. For someone of his strength to be simply dispossessed on a several occasions is inexcusable.
I'm generally a big fan of Song even as he has tried to stretch his game beyond what is his comfort zone and maybe skill, but yesterday was a terrible display of that position. Not something you would see from Xabi Alonso or Daniele de Rossi. He's unlikely to ever be an Alonso, but he could be a de Rossi if is more conscious about possession. That alley-oop he has going with RvP is pretty special.
What was especially galling was that Liverpool are not a good side. They play a rambunctious style but it really lacked cohesion and was tactically naive. It was there for the taking and we got very, very lucky.
I've given up on Walcott.
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if you looked at the game on saturday, the problem was that song was overrun.
there was a moment in the first half where he took the ball off koscielny (i think), and cut outside. no movement ahead. so he cut inside. still no movement.
arteta was wandering about somewhere to his left surrounded by two lfc players, rosicky was ambling about in the center circle, rvp was surrounded, and benayoun and walcott were doing their best imitations of lampposts on either wing.
song was only a few yards out of the arse box, and so playing it back was not a good option. which meant that short of deciding to dribble the length of the field and trying for a bit of roy of the rovers glory, he was on a hiding to nothing.
as it was, he held onto possession for a while longer, and moved the ball a little further forward, before the attentions of the several surrounding lfc players forced him into a pass that was marginal, but at least moved the ball to a position that was less dangerous.
variations on this theme were happening time and time again. if arteta looked less bad than song, it was because at least song's movement was giving arteta an out, whereas the reverse was rarely true.
so while i agree that song's job is to not to give up possession through poor passing decisions or being dispossessed, when the movement of your teammates is poor, you often have no passing options (benayoun and walcott were appalling in their inability to come inside when needed, and arteta was frighteningly lightweight on saturday), and if you are being overrun in midfield (which we were, because benayoun and walcott were essentially somewhat pointless passengers in the first half) then no matter how hard you try, unless you stick the ball in your shorts and run into the stands, sometimes you are going to end up getting dispossessed.
all of this is why things improved considerably when arteta went off: diaby (and then after he blew up, the ox) provided more movement than arteta had been managing, and someone or something managed to pursuade benayoun and walcott to spectate a little less and make themselves available. not long after arteta went off, there was a period where the arse kept the ball for maybe 20-30 passes -- they never once looked capable of anything close to that in the first half.
what i liked about song's play on saturday was that he kept doing what he could. despite the useless way the team were organized / playing in the first half, he kept making himself available. in an overrun midfield, doing this can often end up making an individual player look worse than someone who hides ("oh look, i'm marked! don't pass to me!" -- and since you mention de rossi, i've seen him do the hide, pout and point more than once). i suspect you'd say that song had a better second half than first half; as you've probably guessed by now, i didn't think so. the only difference was the way the people around him played and moved in either half (and actually, i think song looked pretty fucked after around 60 mins or so on saturday, but he kept on going well).
like i said, in the circs, i thought song did very well on saturday. i dunno about walcott. he clearly can't do what he was asked to do against liverpool. but insipid as he was, i don't think he was as awful as benayoun (as far as i could see, his only contribution was to make gibbs feel like he was playing less well than he was). walcott at least made some space for sagna, who had some good moments.
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there was a moment in the first half where he took the ball off koscielny (i think), and cut outside. no movement ahead. so he cut inside. still no movement.
arteta was wandering about somewhere to his left surrounded by two lfc players, rosicky was ambling about in the center circle, rvp was surrounded, and benayoun and walcott were doing their best imitations of lampposts on either wing.
song was only a few yards out of the arse box, and so playing it back was not a good option. which meant that short of deciding to dribble the length of the field and trying for a bit of roy of the rovers glory, he was on a hiding to nothing.
as it was, he held onto possession for a while longer, and moved the ball a little further forward, before the attentions of the several surrounding lfc players forced him into a pass that was marginal, but at least moved the ball to a position that was less dangerous.
variations on this theme were happening time and time again. if arteta looked less bad than song, it was because at least song's movement was giving arteta an out, whereas the reverse was rarely true.
so while i agree that song's job is to not to give up possession through poor passing decisions or being dispossessed, when the movement of your teammates is poor, you often have no passing options (benayoun and walcott were appalling in their inability to come inside when needed, and arteta was frighteningly lightweight on saturday), and if you are being overrun in midfield (which we were, because benayoun and walcott were essentially somewhat pointless passengers in the first half) then no matter how hard you try, unless you stick the ball in your shorts and run into the stands, sometimes you are going to end up getting dispossessed.
all of this is why things improved considerably when arteta went off: diaby (and then after he blew up, the ox) provided more movement than arteta had been managing, and someone or something managed to pursuade benayoun and walcott to spectate a little less and make themselves available. not long after arteta went off, there was a period where the arse kept the ball for maybe 20-30 passes -- they never once looked capable of anything close to that in the first half.
what i liked about song's play on saturday was that he kept doing what he could. despite the useless way the team were organized / playing in the first half, he kept making himself available. in an overrun midfield, doing this can often end up making an individual player look worse than someone who hides ("oh look, i'm marked! don't pass to me!" -- and since you mention de rossi, i've seen him do the hide, pout and point more than once). i suspect you'd say that song had a better second half than first half; as you've probably guessed by now, i didn't think so. the only difference was the way the people around him played and moved in either half (and actually, i think song looked pretty fucked after around 60 mins or so on saturday, but he kept on going well).
like i said, in the circs, i thought song did very well on saturday. i dunno about walcott. he clearly can't do what he was asked to do against liverpool. but insipid as he was, i don't think he was as awful as benayoun (as far as i could see, his only contribution was to make gibbs feel like he was playing less well than he was). walcott at least made some space for sagna, who had some good moments.
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csn't argue with your analysis of liverpool tho. which means we were very poor.
on a more cheering note, how funny will it be if adeybayor's handball costs citeh the title?
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on a more cheering note, how funny will it be if adeybayor's handball costs citeh the title?
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and while i"m sitting here talking to myself, what makes you think rvp will be off to barca?
do you really think that hans t. germanfan is going to remain sanguine about subsidizing southern european soccer smugness now that he has realized how mediocre bayern is, and who ultimately paid for ronaldo, messi, fabregas et al...
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do you really think that hans t. germanfan is going to remain sanguine about subsidizing southern european soccer smugness now that he has realized how mediocre bayern is, and who ultimately paid for ronaldo, messi, fabregas et al...
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There was terrible movement on Saturday and you could see both Song and Arteta throw their hands up in frustration. As a squad, we were terrible. I was a terrible fan, all I could do was shake my head and laugh sardonically, "here we go again..." RvP's winner shocked me out of my stupor and practically brought tears to my eyes.
While I'm sympathetic to your argument about Song, but he needs to be able to grab control and if he is to be in this position at this level against inferior competition. Like I said, I really like him as a player and it's amazing how far he has come since his early days. I think he clearly has a good head and a lot of heart. I hope he is able to take the last step in his evolution.
I did think Song had a better second half, as that one moment of brilliance outweighs a lot of futility. As for de Rossi, I really don't think there has been a player that provides the same combination of fierceness and skill over the last half dozen years. It outweighs his Roman-ness many times over for me. You are welcome to like someone else more.
As for Arteta, he wasn't any better than Song. Equally dismal, on the whole he is more difficult to evaluate. I loved him at Everton. We are not Everton. He clearly has issues playing the "Arsenal way" at Arsenal pace sometimes, but he can also play a killer ball that unlocks a defense. He is really too slow, which is why he was played on the left at Everton and given license to pull inside as need be.
Diaby provides a very good outlet because he is someone that is almost never dispossessed. I'm not really sure how he maintains possession sometimes, but the ball seems to naturally stick top him.
Benayoun is only useful as a wild card to throw on in the last 15 minutes. He is tactically and (mostly) technically, crap.
As for Walcott, I just don't see him ever coming good. He just can't keep his head in the game. I think he might really thrive somewhere else with less pressure. Or something.
I hope RvP doesn't leave for Barca or Madrid. But let's say Mourihno leaves Madrid this Summer, new manager comes in and Perez signs RvP to placate the fans. He will certainly be the hottest property in club football over the Summer. He won't leave if we sign a couple of top quality players and pay him a lot more than we've been willing to pay in the past. Given what he has done this season, you could say he is worth $40+ million / yr in wages. It's not a certainty and everything he has said and that I have read indicates he would prefer to stay at Arsenal, but when push comes to shove, it may be an offer he can't refuse.
I don't know about Hans T. Germanfan. Bayern draws ~70K per match, Schalke ~60K, and Dortmund ~80K. If FIFA fair play is legit, they are sitting pretty over the long term. (Hell, 4 other teams bring in 50K+ per match.)
That's all I've got for now.
While I'm sympathetic to your argument about Song, but he needs to be able to grab control and if he is to be in this position at this level against inferior competition. Like I said, I really like him as a player and it's amazing how far he has come since his early days. I think he clearly has a good head and a lot of heart. I hope he is able to take the last step in his evolution.
I did think Song had a better second half, as that one moment of brilliance outweighs a lot of futility. As for de Rossi, I really don't think there has been a player that provides the same combination of fierceness and skill over the last half dozen years. It outweighs his Roman-ness many times over for me. You are welcome to like someone else more.
As for Arteta, he wasn't any better than Song. Equally dismal, on the whole he is more difficult to evaluate. I loved him at Everton. We are not Everton. He clearly has issues playing the "Arsenal way" at Arsenal pace sometimes, but he can also play a killer ball that unlocks a defense. He is really too slow, which is why he was played on the left at Everton and given license to pull inside as need be.
Diaby provides a very good outlet because he is someone that is almost never dispossessed. I'm not really sure how he maintains possession sometimes, but the ball seems to naturally stick top him.
Benayoun is only useful as a wild card to throw on in the last 15 minutes. He is tactically and (mostly) technically, crap.
As for Walcott, I just don't see him ever coming good. He just can't keep his head in the game. I think he might really thrive somewhere else with less pressure. Or something.
I hope RvP doesn't leave for Barca or Madrid. But let's say Mourihno leaves Madrid this Summer, new manager comes in and Perez signs RvP to placate the fans. He will certainly be the hottest property in club football over the Summer. He won't leave if we sign a couple of top quality players and pay him a lot more than we've been willing to pay in the past. Given what he has done this season, you could say he is worth $40+ million / yr in wages. It's not a certainty and everything he has said and that I have read indicates he would prefer to stay at Arsenal, but when push comes to shove, it may be an offer he can't refuse.
I don't know about Hans T. Germanfan. Bayern draws ~70K per match, Schalke ~60K, and Dortmund ~80K. If FIFA fair play is legit, they are sitting pretty over the long term. (Hell, 4 other teams bring in 50K+ per match.)
That's all I've got for now.
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actually, i really wish i could hear david moyes' opinion of arteta. when arteta was signed to everton, he was a pivot/holding midfielder. he had bounced around a bunch of teams, and never really cut it. moyes moved him forward, and he was a success.
now he is at the arse, he is back to the pivot. my sneaking feeling is that moyes moved him forward because he is one of those engine room players that hides when things get tough. that shit kills you. i thought he made song look terrible at times on saturday, while song did the opposite. it was not a quiet first half in the fathaus.
fwiw, while i don't question wenger's importance to the club for a second, i think he is not always quick to pick up on players who have a tendency to hide, and this is a problem (even worse, and much as i hate to admit it, i think that this is one of old baconface's real skills -- indeed, it's perhaps why he manages to keep manure going like he does).
in re de rossi. like i say, i've seen him hide too i've also seen him be amazing. shrug. alonso is another story. a legend. i'd watch him play for anyone, anywhere. even real.
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now he is at the arse, he is back to the pivot. my sneaking feeling is that moyes moved him forward because he is one of those engine room players that hides when things get tough. that shit kills you. i thought he made song look terrible at times on saturday, while song did the opposite. it was not a quiet first half in the fathaus.
fwiw, while i don't question wenger's importance to the club for a second, i think he is not always quick to pick up on players who have a tendency to hide, and this is a problem (even worse, and much as i hate to admit it, i think that this is one of old baconface's real skills -- indeed, it's perhaps why he manages to keep manure going like he does).
in re de rossi. like i say, i've seen him hide too i've also seen him be amazing. shrug. alonso is another story. a legend. i'd watch him play for anyone, anywhere. even real.
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and like i said, about walcott, i have no idea.
i have a horrible feeling that he will spend a few more years running around like a headless chicken at the arse, and then get transfered to some side with a fascist as a manager, who will then turn him into someone to come back and haunt us.
but it really doesn't bear thinking about.
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i have a horrible feeling that he will spend a few more years running around like a headless chicken at the arse, and then get transfered to some side with a fascist as a manager, who will then turn him into someone to come back and haunt us.
but it really doesn't bear thinking about.
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You two are talking about completely different things.
Where Song's mental game is concerned, the parallel drawn to the ManUs' sinking of Preparation Hotspur is relevant.
Shit happens, and the ManUs don't even blink. I think they kind of expect things to go wrong in a game, and their ability to adjust and smell blood when there is an opening comes instinctively at this point. SAF has scripted all of that long ago.
Wenger may be great at many things, but mid-game adjustments isn't one of them. Not for as long as I've been watching Arsenal. His players aren't good at it either, as a rule. In this particular game, the opponent wasn't good enough to maintain the kind of pressure they created for 75-80 minutes without getting frustrated and seeing their midfield dominance turn to pinball. Song seemed to be the only player in the middle of the park to notice the game was at a crossroads. How much mental strength does it take to get pounded for 80 minutes but to ultimately look like you were patiently waiting for that chance all along?
Where Song's mental game is concerned, the parallel drawn to the ManUs' sinking of Preparation Hotspur is relevant.
Shit happens, and the ManUs don't even blink. I think they kind of expect things to go wrong in a game, and their ability to adjust and smell blood when there is an opening comes instinctively at this point. SAF has scripted all of that long ago.
Wenger may be great at many things, but mid-game adjustments isn't one of them. Not for as long as I've been watching Arsenal. His players aren't good at it either, as a rule. In this particular game, the opponent wasn't good enough to maintain the kind of pressure they created for 75-80 minutes without getting frustrated and seeing their midfield dominance turn to pinball. Song seemed to be the only player in the middle of the park to notice the game was at a crossroads. How much mental strength does it take to get pounded for 80 minutes but to ultimately look like you were patiently waiting for that chance all along?
If Plan A doesn't work, more Plan A (which only works for Barca). That's always been the way at Arsenal under Wenger. At times, there has been a player or group of players who can take the game by the scruff of the neck and force their will on it. That's what we saw from van Persie. One nice ball from Sagna, one nice ball from Song. QED.
FWIW on Arteta, I think he is a bit out of place in our system. We don't need a pivot the way he plays the pivot (a poor mans Riquelme, maybe). Whoever plays beside Song needs to be more dynamic and active, like Flamini. On that note, I'm really curious to see what the Wilshire-Ramsey-Song trio looks like together. Hopefully, we'll get to see it sometime this season.
I think Wenger is a stubborn old man, but he has earned the right. His blind spots are well documented at this point.
I don't think it takes that much mental strength. If you are having a bad day, your teammates are listless or whatever, you bide your time, you stretch into different spaces on the field. You throw out a hard challenge, probe and poke, see what alters the area around you. A lot of it is really conditioning. If you still have gas in the tank, then you can use your brain. According to Wenger, Song has a deep knowledge and understanding of the game. He's always been one of Wenger's favorites and a pet project.
Except for Theo. He started out without much upstairs. A shame, really. By all reports he is a nice kid. But we've all played with guys like that. The coach is seduced by the pace and the flashes of skill that turn up from time to time. No matter that there is no real head for the game.
The only non-Arsenal player I enjoyed watching as much as Alonso was Essien in his prime. Wow. Lucky for us that he is a shadow of himself.
Well all think Real is going to win the Champions League, right?
FWIW on Arteta, I think he is a bit out of place in our system. We don't need a pivot the way he plays the pivot (a poor mans Riquelme, maybe). Whoever plays beside Song needs to be more dynamic and active, like Flamini. On that note, I'm really curious to see what the Wilshire-Ramsey-Song trio looks like together. Hopefully, we'll get to see it sometime this season.
I think Wenger is a stubborn old man, but he has earned the right. His blind spots are well documented at this point.
I don't think it takes that much mental strength. If you are having a bad day, your teammates are listless or whatever, you bide your time, you stretch into different spaces on the field. You throw out a hard challenge, probe and poke, see what alters the area around you. A lot of it is really conditioning. If you still have gas in the tank, then you can use your brain. According to Wenger, Song has a deep knowledge and understanding of the game. He's always been one of Wenger's favorites and a pet project.
Except for Theo. He started out without much upstairs. A shame, really. By all reports he is a nice kid. But we've all played with guys like that. The coach is seduced by the pace and the flashes of skill that turn up from time to time. No matter that there is no real head for the game.
The only non-Arsenal player I enjoyed watching as much as Alonso was Essien in his prime. Wow. Lucky for us that he is a shadow of himself.
Well all think Real is going to win the Champions League, right?