CWD: What did you drink last night (or whenever)?

[Pavel Tchichikov]

originally posted by mark e:
I think I may know one who may or may not have grown stout, but certainly drinks far too much Swabian wine.

disguised as weißer Jura

 

[Claude Kolm]

originally posted by Oswaldo Costa:

originally posted by Jonathan Loesberg:

originally posted by Oswaldo Costa:
Not too shabby Chablis2013 Laurent Tribut 1er Cru Beauroy 13.0%
A smidgen of minerality, a hint of butteriness, a whiff of oxidativeness, and gobs of fennel. Only the butteriness (from variety, not barrel) was unwelcome, partly because I expected a Tribut to be more Shaker-Quaker, or at least generic Protestant. Maybe Chablis and me, or even Burgundian Chardonnay as a category, we've lost that loving feeling. But Jura still often pleases, so...

How can you tell where the butter comes from? With Chardonnay, I would guess malolactic, but it would be easy to prove me wrong or right if the domaine had a web page that described vinification.

I can't always be 100% sure, but I sense a significant difference between the aroma and/or flavor of new or newish oak, which can be found in any white made from any variety, and a different kind of villainous vanilla that I nearly always find in every Chardonnay that I taste, including unoaked or neutral-oaked ones from Louis Michel and Eric Texier, or even Ganevat. So, I guess I internalized these latter imprints. It's not just a pure taste sensation, there is a kind of viscosity attached.

I don't know if it results from malo. So many whites that undergo malo don't have it, but it could, of course, be the result of how it impacts this particular variety. Would be instructive if I could taste a barrel of unoaked Chardonnay that underwent malo next to one where the winemaker blocked it.

Cork definitely gives of an oak-influenced overtone that can be especially noticeable with rather neutral grapes such as Weissburgunder (Pinot Blanc) and Chardonnay. Try some screw-capped Chardonnays and see if you still get it.

 

[Jonathan Loesberg]

originally posted by Oswaldo Costa:

originally posted by Peter Creasey:

originally posted by Jonathan Loesberg: How can you tell where the butter comes from? With Chardonnay, I would guess malolactic, but it would be easy to prove me wrong or right if the domaine had a web page that described vinification.

I'm stumped as I try to think of another answer to "where the butter comes from" other than malolactic.

. . . . . . Pete

I suspect it's a primary fermentation characteristic of the variety itself, and not the result of malo. I think Eric has a point of view about this, would be great if he could chime in.

I'm guessing you never lived under the regime of CA buttered popcorn Chardonnay, which came directly from malolactic. Not being a winemaker or having any real technical knowledge, I can't say it's the only cause, but it's the only one I'm familiar with. I've never experienced it from new oak. It's true that the process doesn't have to cause that, but it can be directed to cause that. Chardonnay itself, is a fairly malleable variety. Really a lot of varieties are. Just compare an Italian Pinot Grigio with an Alsatian Pinot Gris.Get your hands on more minerally Chablis and you'll see that.

 

[Florida Jim]

Diacetyl is the molecule responsible for most, if not all, buttery aromas and flavors. It’s a natural product of fermentation and is found in especially high quantities during ML. Grape chemistry/health/ripeness/morphology determine quantities.
How much is in the wine when bottled depends on how the wine is treated after ML.
And, FWIW, it’s also found in red wines.
Best, Jim

 

[MLipton]

originally posted by Florida Jim:
Diacetyl is the molecule responsible for most, if not all, buttery aromas and flavors. It’s a natural product of fermentation and is found in especially high quantities during ML. Grape chemistry/health/ripeness/morphology determine quantities.
How much is in the wine when bottled depends on how the wine is treated after ML.
And, FWIW, it’s also found in red wines.
Best, Jim

Feel free to correct me if I’m mistaken, Jim, but diacetyl is a byproduct of MLF that occurs primarily when the fermentation gets too hot. Granted, some amount is inevitable in any MLF but lots of diacetyl can only result from a winemaker choosing to run their MLF at too high a temperature.

Mark Lipton

 

[MLipton]

originally posted by Florida Jim:
Diacetyl is the molecule responsible for most, if not all, buttery aromas and flavors. It’s a natural product of fermentation and is found in especially high quantities during ML. Grape chemistry/health/ripeness/morphology determine quantities.
How much is in the wine when bottled depends on how the wine is treated after ML.
And, FWIW, it’s also found in red wines.
Best, Jim

Feel free to correct me if I’m mistaken, Jim, but diacetyl is a byproduct of MLF that occurs primarily when the fermentation gets too hot. Granted, some amount is inevitable in any MLF but lots of diacetyl can only result from a winemaker choosing to run their MLF at too high a temperature.

Mark Lipton

 

[Florida Jim]

No chemist am I, but my understanding is that it can be produced in primary, as well.
And in ML heat may be a major factor in production but initial must chemistry plays a part in that also.
I never made Chardonnay so much of what I’m saying is from others or study.

 

[MLipton]

originally posted by Florida Jim:
No chemist am I, but my understanding is that it can be produced in primary, as well.
And in ML heat may be a major factor in production but initial must chemistry plays a part in that also.
I never made Chardonnay so much of what I’m saying is from others or study.

Right you are. Yeast can produce diacetyl (it’s a byproduct in the biosynthesis of the amino acid valine) but importantly they can also reabsorb and reduce diacetyl. This happens in the yeast’s stationary phase (I.e. after primary fermentation). You’re also right that many factors affect diacetyl levels, especially oxygenation of the must.

Mark Lipton

 

[Florida Jim]

That reabsorbtion can also occur even after ML is complete by leaving the finished wine on the lees (assuming they are healthy). I actually witnessed this by being around to taste and smell a friend’s wine after ML and then, later, after considerable time on the lees which included lees stirring.
Little miracles . . .

 

[MLipton]

originally posted by Florida Jim:
That reabsorbtion can also occur even after ML is complete by leaving the finished wine on the lees (assuming they are healthy). I actually witnessed this by being around to taste and smell a friend’s wine after ML and then, later, after considerable time on the lees which included lees stirring.
Little miracles . . .

Good to know. One reason not to rack until late in the game, I suppose.

Mark Lipton

 

[Oswaldo Costa]

originally posted by Claude Kolm:

originally posted by Oswaldo Costa:

originally posted by Jonathan Loesberg:

originally posted by Oswaldo Costa:
Not too shabby Chablis2013 Laurent Tribut 1er Cru Beauroy 13.0%
A smidgen of minerality, a hint of butteriness, a whiff of oxidativeness, and gobs of fennel. Only the butteriness (from variety, not barrel) was unwelcome, partly because I expected a Tribut to be more Shaker-Quaker, or at least generic Protestant. Maybe Chablis and me, or even Burgundian Chardonnay as a category, we've lost that loving feeling. But Jura still often pleases, so...

How can you tell where the butter comes from? With Chardonnay, I would guess malolactic, but it would be easy to prove me wrong or right if the domaine had a web page that described vinification.

I can't always be 100% sure, but I sense a significant difference between the aroma and/or flavor of new or newish oak, which can be found in any white made from any variety, and a different kind of villainous vanilla that I nearly always find in every Chardonnay that I taste, including unoaked or neutral-oaked ones from Louis Michel and Eric Texier, or even Ganevat. So, I guess I internalized these latter imprints. It's not just a pure taste sensation, there is a kind of viscosity attached.

I don't know if it results from malo. So many whites that undergo malo don't have it, but it could, of course, be the result of how it impacts this particular variety. Would be instructive if I could taste a barrel of unoaked Chardonnay that underwent malo next to one where the winemaker blocked it.

Cork definitely gives of an oak-influenced overtone that can be especially noticeable with rather neutral grapes such as Weissburgunder (Pinot Blanc) and Chardonnay. Try some screw-capped Chardonnays and see if you still get it.

Not so easy to find around these parts, so just ordered a bottle of Felton Road.

Hoped to break the streak with a 2017 Moreau-Naudet Chablis last night, but it was a bit wishy-washy.

 

[maureen]

2012 Giuseppe Rinaldi Barbera d'Alba

Purchased from CSW about nine years ago.

Relatively light/ no, lacey/ no supple for Barbera. Bright and a bit chewy, very fragrant, showing some complexity and drinking at about the perfect balance of fruit and acid.

 

[MLipton]

Opened tonight with rack of lamb and various other goodies, a bottle of 2010 Gonon St Joseph, the end of an era Chez Lipton as this was our last bottle of Gonon. Fuck me, this is good stuff! An intoxicating mix of lush Syrah fruit, silky tannins and animale notes. The nose on this wine took me back to a dinner in Berkeley in 2005 with Rahsaan, Steve E, Lou Kessler and Slaton and the bottle of 1986 Verset Cornas that Lou graced us with. This is in all likelihood the finest bottle of N Rhone Syrah since then.

No doubt it will continue to evolve for another decade, but for my tastes it won’t get much better than it was tonight.

Mark Lipton

 

[Rahsaan]

originally posted by MLipton:
The nose on this wine took me back to a dinner in Berkeley in 2005 with Rahsaan, Steve E, Lou Kessler and Slaton and the bottle of 1986 Verset Cornas that Lou graced us with.

Those were the days!

 

[Larry Stein]

Slaton! He’s disappeared from this bored and social media in general. Wonder what he’s up to these days?

 

[MLipton]

originally posted by Larry Stein:
Staton! He’s disappeared from this bored and social media in general. Wonder what he’s up to these days?

He still occasionally posts notes to CT.

Mark Lipton

 

[BJ]

Slaton, dude, Slaton.

 

[Larry Stein]

Hey, tell me you’ve never fat-fingered when typing!

 

[Oswaldo Costa]

originally posted by Claude Kolm:

originally posted by Oswaldo Costa:

originally posted by Claude Kolm:

originally posted by Oswaldo Costa:
2018 Gilles Berlioz Chignin-Bergeron Les Christine 13.5%
100% Roussanne. Not my favorite grape for acidity deficiency reasons, but I was hoping a more northerly/cooler specimen might do the trick. This is Berlioz's top of the pops white, from a very select parcel, named after the missus, and on the expensive side. Expressive nose, a cross between pineapples and peaches, trying its incongruous best to place Savoy somewhere in the tropics. Also, and most surprisingly, enough cat pee to make a savvy gnome blanch. Attractive density and concentration, showing some attractive spice hints, but, alas, still deficient in the acidity department, despite a game effort by the bitterness department to step into the breach. Interesting, but not my cuppa. Glad I only bought one.

Try the cousin, Adrien Berlioz. Much, much, much better wines.

Your advice is my command. Both colors?

Start with the whites. The reds (at least some) are coming in at 10% alcohol, if you can believe it.

Thanks, Claude, last night we uncorked a pair from Adrien Berlioz and they lived up to your praise. Translated notes:

2020 Adrien Berlioz Roussette de Savoie Altesse Zulime 12.0%
Exuberant, mineral (flint) & floral. Pleasant density, good balance (thanks to a quite sufficient citric acidity). No sign of oak. Only drawback was a slight yeastiness on the finish. But a lovely wine.

2020 Adrien Berlioz Vin de Savoie Mondeuse Chignin Cuvée Rosa 10.5%
Total fruit bomb, quite spectacular. Great balance, no sign of oak. Relatively simple, but very fresh, goes down easy. At the end, almost cloying, like an off-dry red riesling. Wondering what the rs is on this. Good thing the abv is only 10.5%. Actually kind of a miracle, given the balance.

 

[Jayson Cohen]

Last night Manhattan Wine Co held an excellent Bubble Bash of grower Champagnes. Many of the usual suspects were there including Mike Carleton from Transatlantic Bubbles, whom a few of us know.

There were a lot of excellent wines there. One was Roger Coulon 'Les Hauts Partas' Blanc de Blancs Extra Brut Champagne 2016, a Chouilly site that produced a hazelnut-y beautifully structured wine. (And some wines at the event I didn’t care for.)

I’ll out a new producer for me, now imported into the NY area by Bryan Garcia (corkhoarder), Pierre Deville from Verzy. I loved this 2019 50/50 blend of Pinot Noir and Chardonnay; incisive Champagne that underwent full malo and was finished with four grams, bucking the trend of relying on long lies aging and zero dosage. A breath of fresh air. There is not much of it if you are curious: only a small fraction of the small production comes to the States.

Pavel, one perhaps for our next meet up. I bought a bottle.