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Latour with Guinea Fowl?
- Thread starter Peter Creasey
- Start date
originally posted by georg lauer:
originally posted by Tom Blach:
I certainly wouldn't deny that German non-dry Riesling works superbly at the table but it doesn't need food to be comprehensible.
I would.
I have heard many times how the Prüms serve old (and much less overtly sweet) Auslese with their stag roast. But just like any other off dry Riesling, I likely would have enough after one glass, even as I can imagine it going well with the pear and boysenberries they serve with it.
It puzzles me how food friendly these wines are seen by some, an idea mostly limited to the US. Even with Asian food they only work occasionally for me and I usually much prefer the dryer wines we also open, Riesling and things like Scheurebe or Muskateller. I find this especially the case for current Rieslings that are not aged, which are in the majority much sweeter than they used to be 40 years ago when most of today’s Kabinetts would have been labeled Spät- or Auslese (a recent swing back by certain wineries notwithstanding). There is often a claim in the anglophone world that Kabinett does not really taste sweet because of its bracing acidity, which to me is just bizarre. I remember a meal in one of the German three star restaurants (famous for its japanified modern French cuisine) where the Sommelière was famous for serving off dry Riesling throughout the meal. We stopped enjoying this already before the amuse geules were finished and soon after we begged for mercy.
Just to be clear, I totally see the appeal and quality of these wines. I used to buy them regularly. But they all sit untouched in my cellar as we never find a find a reason to drink them and I have started to give them away.
My experience is not dissimilar-I am sometimes amazed by the marvellous quality of wines that my friends open for me but I do not have an actual appetite for them and no longer own a single bottle.
georg lauer
georg lauer
originally posted by mark e:
Asian food? I mean that could refer to hundreds of regional cuisines. So, if it works for you, great. But I find the phrase patently absurd. It really depends, but very frequently, dry wines are the worst.originally posted by georg lauer:
Even with Asian food they only work occasionally for me and I usually much prefer the drier wines we also open.originally posted by Tom Blach:
I certainly wouldn't deny that German non-dry Riesling works superbly at the table but it doesn't need food to be comprehensible.
Mark, I anticipated that you would jump on this and you are obviously right. I am reasonably aware of the nuances in regional cuisines across Asia and their respective needs for a suitable wine. My early visits at the Slanted Door certainly opened new and unexpected horizons in that regard. The point I wanted to make is that, in the broader scheme of things, different dishes from Asian countries are the most frequently cited examples for food that pairs especially well with off-dry Riesling. And for me it rarely works, even as I am sure you could come up with something I would enjoy. But much more often I prefer beer or tea and even dry wines work for me more often than the sweet ones. Sweet Riesling is certainly not the all-round silver bullet for everything spicy or Asian the way it is often stated and I assume on that we agree.
georg lauer
georg lauer
originally posted by MLipton:
originally posted by georg lauer:
There is often a claim in the anglophone world that Kabinett does not really taste sweet because of its bracing acidity, which to me is just bizarre.
Georg,
I am a tad confused by this statement. Are you saying that the idea that acidity reduces perceived sweetness is limited to the anglophone world, or that Kabinetten are perceived dry is limited to the Anglophone world?
Mark Lipton
Mark,
what I meant is the idea that acidity can reduce perceived sweetness so much that one drinks a Kabinett with 25g+ of sugar and thinks "this is rather dry". That does not work even with halbtrocken or feinherb, at least for me or anybody else I drink with regularly. They taste less sweet than they would with less acidity, but decidedly sweet they taste (at least for the first decades). And I have never heard or read this "you will not even know this wine has quite a bit of sugar" anywhere else but in the US and the UK. Definitely not a sentiment I ever encountered in Germany.
The discussion is probably far too long and boring for this bored or most forums. Yet, first, I take issue with the word "sweet." Fruity-style German rieslings do, yes, have RS, but sweet is a stretch. Nor are these wines a silver bullet as you say. And many dishes at Slanted Door, such as shaking beef, were far better with dry Austrian riesling. It depends on the spice, sweetness, sauce - and most of all the dish itself. There is no answer to the question.originally posted by georg lauer:
originally posted by mark e:
Asian food? I mean that could refer to hundreds of regional cuisines. So, if it works for you, great. But I find the phrase patently absurd. It really depends, but very frequently, dry wines are the worst.originally posted by georg lauer:
Even with Asian food they only work occasionally for me and I usually much prefer the drier wines we also open.originally posted by Tom Blach:
I certainly wouldn't deny that German non-dry Riesling works superbly at the table but it doesn't need food to be comprehensible.
Mark, I anticipated that you would jump on this and you are obviously right. I am reasonably aware of the nuances in regional cuisines across Asia and their respective needs for a suitable wine. My early visits at the Slanted Door certainly opened new and unexpected horizons in that regard. The point I wanted to make is that, in the broader scheme of things, different dishes from Asian countries are the most frequently cited examples for food that pairs especially well with off-dry Riesling. And for me it rarely works, even as I am sure you could come up with something I would enjoy. But much more often I prefer beer or tea and even dry wines work for me more often than the sweet ones. Sweet Riesling is certainly not the all-round silver bullet for everything spicy or Asian the way it is often stated and I assume on that we agree.
My path to finding wines that I thought were, well, tasty, with many of those dishes was simply trial and error. I had never tasted a German riesling with RS before moving to SF from several decades in Italy where I only drank dry wines with the food in Piemonte.
originally posted by georg lauer:
Just to be clear, I totally see the appeal and quality of these wines. I used to buy them regularly. But they all sit untouched in my cellar as we never find a find a reason to drink them and I have started to give them away.
at the risk of alienating everyone in this conversation, i increasingly find this to be true of riesling in general, regardless of its sugar content. and that this point applies even to rieslings from growers whose other wines i am otherwise disposed to open at the drop of a hat.
a winegrower i am friendly with in franconia, who makes quite delicious riesling and silvaner, once confided to me that he feels similarly, if perhaps even more strongly. he told me he shuddering slightly at teh thought of actually drinking riesling, describing how he felt it was a 'cold' grape, emotionally.
i sort of got what he meant -- and it certainly helps in understanding why he has planted teh chenin.
fb.
georg lauer
georg lauer
originally posted by fatboy:
originally posted by georg lauer:
Just to be clear, I totally see the appeal and quality of these wines. I used to buy them regularly. But they all sit untouched in my cellar as we never find a find a reason to drink them and I have started to give them away.
at the risk of alienating everyone in this conversation, i increasingly find this to be true of riesling in general, regardless of its sugar content. and that this point applies even to rieslings from growers whose other wines i am otherwise disposed to open at the drop of a hat.
a winegrower i am friendly with in franconia, who makes quite delicious riesling and silvaner, once confided to me that he feels similarly, if perhaps even more strongly. he told me he shuddering slightly at teh thought of actually drinking riesling, describing how he felt it was a 'cold' grape, emotionally.
i sort of got what he meant -- and it certainly helps in understanding why he has planted teh chenin.
fb.
Maybe it was the Covid vaccine. Actually, what else could it have been?
I have had almost an aversion for quite some time time now, and so do several of my friends. We mostly switched to Silvaner, Pinot Blanc, and Chenin. Even Chardonnay.
Unfortunately, I’m sitting on a huge pile of dry Rieslings. All of them I used to love.
On the bright side, I opened a few over the last weeks after a longer hiatus and reasonable enjoyed several. So not all hope is lost.
georg lauer
georg lauer
originally posted by mark e:
Yet, first, I take issue with the word "sweet." Fruity-style German rieslings do, yes, have RS, but sweet is a stretch.
I think this might explain a lot about the different preferences. For me, the foremost sensation is indeed “sweet”.
There is clearly a huge interindividual variation of how intensely we perceive sweetness and at least for now there is no way to experience somebody else’s sensation.
originally posted by georg lauer:
Maybe it was the Covid vaccine. Actually, what else could it have been?
:)
for me, the downward trend long predates covid. if there is a place to look for sense, i suspect climate change might prove a better rabbit hole to plumb.
I have had almost an aversion for quite some time time now, and so do several of my friends. We mostly switched to Silvaner, Pinot Blanc, and Chenin. Even Chardonnay.
Unfortunately, I’m sitting on a huge pile of dry Rieslings. All of them I used to love.
On the bright side, I opened a few over the last weeks after a longer hiatus and reasonable enjoyed several. So not all hope is lost.
you summed up my position quite eloquently above. i frequently enjoy the quality of rieslings when i am offered. but i find myself happy with a glass, and never feel like making a dent in teh rieslinglake in teh fatcave.
fwiw, one of my regular eating and drinking companions (hiram, who is known to many on teh bored) thinks that riesling is teh god's own grape, so it is not that i am not constantly challenged about these thoughts. yet they are what they are, and the feelings / trends only seem to be becoming more pronounced.
fb.
originally posted by mark e:
My path to finding wines that I thought were, well, tasty, with many of those dishes was simply trial and error. I had never tasted a German riesling with RS before moving to SF from several decades in Italy where I only drank dry wines with the food in Piemonte.
without wanting to evoke how-many-folk-singers-does-it-take-to-change-teh-lightbulb?, do you ever wonder whether that might have been a golden age for a certain kind of wine? as in, i wonder if i could time travel back to the early 00s and drink your selections with the food you paired it with (i would do so in a heartbeat btw), would teh ennui i feel about current rieslings abate?
fb.
originally posted by fatboy:
originally posted by mark e:
My path to finding wines that I thought were, well, tasty, with many of those dishes was simply trial and error. I had never tasted a German riesling with RS before moving to SF from several decades in Italy where I only drank dry wines with the food in Piemonte.
without wanting to evoke how-many-folk-singers-does-it-take-to-change-teh-lightbulb?, do you ever wonder whether that might have been a golden age for a certain kind of wine? as in, i wonder if i could time travel back to the early 00s and drink your selections with the food you paired it with (i would do so in a heartbeat btw), would teh ennui i feel about current rieslings abate?
Perhaps this ennui stems from the unfortunate loss of Bill Mayer in our lives?
Just a bleak thought,
Mark Lipton
Peter Creasey
Peter Creasey
originally posted by georg lauer: Just to be clear, I totally see the appeal and quality of these wines. I used to buy them regularly. But they all sit untouched in my cellar as we never find a find a reason to drink them and I have started to give them away.
georg, that fairly expresses the feeling I often have.
. . . . Pete
Keith Levenberg
Keith Levenberg
This might be an age thing. I used to be able to guzzle off-dry riesling with food and without, but at some point in my late 30s it turned into "one glass is enough" and I couldn't do it anymore.originally posted by georg lauer:
I have heard many times how the Prüms serve old (and much less overtly sweet) Auslese with their stag roast. But just like any other off dry Riesling, I likely would have enough after one glass, even as I can imagine it going well with the pear and boysenberries they serve with it.
It puzzles me how food friendly these wines are seen by some, an idea mostly limited to the US.
originally posted by Peter Creasey:
originally posted by georg lauer: Just to be clear, I totally see the appeal and quality of these wines. I used to buy them regularly. But they all sit untouched in my cellar as we never find a find a reason to drink them and I have started to give them away.
georg, that fairly expresses the feeling I often have.
ffs pete. use some fucking capital letters.
teh politburo has bunged me a wad to try and re-engage teh hit$ for teh bored, and goal #1 is trying to persuade teh outside world that n = greater than 1 when it comes to teh actual people behind teh posts.
if you insist on responding to teh same post with teh same sentiment, syntax, and punctuation, then this plan is going to be fucked from teh outset.
i has given up a lucrative role on another bored playing a wiwp who never drinks but is nevertehless an expert on every wine ever made in burgundy to take this gig. and tbh it ought to be be teh easy money in comparison. so just pay teh attention, and help make it so. capiche?
fb.
originally posted by Keith Levenberg:
This might be an age thing. I used to be able to guzzle off-dry riesling with food and without, but at some point in my late 30s it turned into "one glass is enough" and I couldn't do it anymore.originally posted by georg lauer:
I have heard many times how the Prüms serve old (and much less overtly sweet) Auslese with their stag roast. But just like any other off dry Riesling, I likely would have enough after one glass, even as I can imagine it going well with the pear and boysenberries they serve with it.
It puzzles me how food friendly these wines are seen by some, an idea mostly limited to the US.
message to teh politburo -- did we have a plan b?
fb.
Not sure if the ennui would abate, but without a question, the wines were different 25 years ago. That elusive thing Bill Mayer called a perfect Mosel kabinett is likely never to be seen again - or maybe it will, but we won't see it.originally posted by fatboy:
originally posted by mark e:
My path to finding wines that I thought were, well, tasty, with many of those dishes was simply trial and error. I had never tasted a German riesling with RS before moving to SF from several decades in Italy where I only drank dry wines with the food in Piemonte.
without wanting to evoke how-many-folk-singers-does-it-take-to-change-teh-lightbulb?, do you ever wonder whether that might have been a golden age for a certain kind of wine? as in, i wonder if i could time travel back to the early 00s and drink your selections with the food you paired it with (i would do so in a heartbeat btw), would teh ennui i feel about current rieslings abate?
fb.
Peter Creasey
Peter Creasey
michael, your reprimand should be directed to georg (note his small g). my prior posting was done correctly (unlike this one). thanks for the attention, though.
. . . . pete
. . . . pete
georg lauer
georg lauer
originally posted by Peter Creasey:
michael, your reprimand should be directed to georg (note his small g). my prior posting was done correctly (unlike this one). thanks for the attention, though.
. . . . pete
Don't ever again call my g small.
Jonathan Loesberg
Jonathan Loesberg
Well, I like Riesling when I drink it, which I do more than once a year.
originally posted by Keith Levenberg:
This might be an age thing. I used to be able to guzzle off-dry riesling with food and without, but at some point in my late 30s it turned into "one glass is enough" and I couldn't do it anymore.
What role does age play? You stopped consuming other sweet things as you aged?
I'm also drinking less off-dry riesling than I did 20 years ago. But, as I age, I am also trying to limit alcohol consumption. So I would welcome more low abv off-dry wines, if I were still as excited by their profile!