Ian Fitzsimmons
Ian Fitzsimmons
Sounds like a technique for making lemonade, so to speak.
2006 LAnglore (Eric Pfifferling) Comeyre Ctes du Rhone
- Thread starter Oswaldo Costa
- Start date
Steven Spielmann
Steven Spielmann
It's in some sense trivially true that the more intervention and techniques you allow, the broader the spectrum of flavors you can impart, since if any technique is non-natural the total allowable set of techniques will be larger than the total set of natural techniques.
As a general rule, I find the flavors imparted by non-natural techniques strange and disgusting. And I also find the spectrum of flavors, textures, smells, etc. achievable by so-called 'natural' techniques more than sufficient for enjoyable drinking. Hence my preference for so-called natural wines.
I don't think oak is necessarily non-natural (it comes from trees and needn't require odd chemical treatments) although it is a kind of flavoring, and there's a reasonable (but arguably seperate from the issue of 'naturalness') question as to why, if oak is OK for wine connoisseurs, e.g. cardamom seeds should not be. (Preferably without relying on history or tradition. One response would start from the fact that you have to let it ferment in something after all.) But the real problem with oak is that there's only a small amount of high-quality oak and only a fraction of it is handled properly from there. That's not a naturalness problem, it's a crappy oak problem.
As a general rule, I find the flavors imparted by non-natural techniques strange and disgusting. And I also find the spectrum of flavors, textures, smells, etc. achievable by so-called 'natural' techniques more than sufficient for enjoyable drinking. Hence my preference for so-called natural wines.
I don't think oak is necessarily non-natural (it comes from trees and needn't require odd chemical treatments) although it is a kind of flavoring, and there's a reasonable (but arguably seperate from the issue of 'naturalness') question as to why, if oak is OK for wine connoisseurs, e.g. cardamom seeds should not be. (Preferably without relying on history or tradition. One response would start from the fact that you have to let it ferment in something after all.) But the real problem with oak is that there's only a small amount of high-quality oak and only a fraction of it is handled properly from there. That's not a naturalness problem, it's a crappy oak problem.
Florida Jim
Florida Jim
So CM is only a step in the process; once its complete, then the must is pressed and the alcoholic fermentation begins, yes?
Best, Jim
Ian Fitzsimmons
Ian Fitzsimmons
I think it depends on the details of the process used. If the grapes are placed in a vat which is simply sealed, from what I understand, grapes at the bottom are crushed by the weight of those above, and natural yeasts present begin fermenting the juice thus released. This fermentation generates CO2, which, being heavier than O2, blankets the whole grape mass and isolates it from atmospheric oxygen. In this manner, aerobic yeast fermentation is suppressed shortly after it begins, and CM proceeds.
If dry ice is tossed into a sealed vat, or gaseous CO2 pumped in, the initial aerobic yeast fermentation may never take place.
I'm wondering if the enzyme-mediated breakdown in CM is, essentially, the beginning of the normal decomposition process that would take place in an un-ruptured grape separated from the vine, analogous to what happens in any intact fruit once it's removed from its plant.
If dry ice is tossed into a sealed vat, or gaseous CO2 pumped in, the initial aerobic yeast fermentation may never take place.
I'm wondering if the enzyme-mediated breakdown in CM is, essentially, the beginning of the normal decomposition process that would take place in an un-ruptured grape separated from the vine, analogous to what happens in any intact fruit once it's removed from its plant.
Florida Jim
Florida Jim
Ian,
This is my understanding of the process - I am trying to draw Eric out to see if my understanding is correct or if I am missing something.
As for your last paragraph, I think we need to be clear that it would be an un-ruptured cluster separated from the vine. If it were a grape, the skin would be ruptured at the place where the stem attached.
Best, Jim
Jonathan Loesberg
Jonathan Loesberg
"if any technique is non-natural the total allowable set of techniques will be larger than the total set of natural techniques."
If any technique is non-natural, there are no natural techniques and so it will be no trick to have a larger number of non-natural techniques than natural techniques. At a certain point, the irreducible non-naturalness of all winemaking will make an attempt to create a metaphysically coherent definition of natural wines and allowable, natural techniques incoherent. We have faced this on this bored before when trying to define spoofulation.
The general solution at that time was in fact to define in historical and traditional terms, with sufficient tolerance of looseness to avoid absurdity, which means, as well, sufficient tolerance of looseness as to make the definition a rule of thumb and not either a scientific term or a philosophical concept.
In this spirit, I'm happy to let the debate over CM be hashed out by bumping up noses against walls.
If any technique is non-natural, there are no natural techniques and so it will be no trick to have a larger number of non-natural techniques than natural techniques. At a certain point, the irreducible non-naturalness of all winemaking will make an attempt to create a metaphysically coherent definition of natural wines and allowable, natural techniques incoherent. We have faced this on this bored before when trying to define spoofulation.
The general solution at that time was in fact to define in historical and traditional terms, with sufficient tolerance of looseness to avoid absurdity, which means, as well, sufficient tolerance of looseness as to make the definition a rule of thumb and not either a scientific term or a philosophical concept.
In this spirit, I'm happy to let the debate over CM be hashed out by bumping up noses against walls.
Florida Jim
Florida Jim
Jesus!
Best, Jim
Jonathan Loesberg
Jonathan Loesberg
Why me? I was just innocently responding to Steven.
Florida Jim
Florida Jim
Jonathan,
You will have a very long row to hoe to convince me you are innocent.
Although, from what I know of you, I'd guess you'll try.
Best, Jim
You will have a very long row to hoe to convince me you are innocent.
Although, from what I know of you, I'd guess you'll try.
Best, Jim
Ian Fitzsimmons
Ian Fitzsimmons
I was trying to respond to Yule's note. You've done this and I haven't, so I take it for granted you know more about it than I do.
You're right about the cluster, of course.
Sharon Bowman
Sharon Bowman
I was just fermentationing the other day! In France, we try to fermentation often.
Ian Fitzsimmons
Ian Fitzsimmons
That's intransitive, I take it?
Jonathan Loesberg
Jonathan Loesberg
I think this is unnecessarily abusive. I think I may decide to become aggrieved.
But, then again, maybe not.
Florida Jim
Florida Jim
Are you feeling OK?
Your response is so short and intelligible . . .
Best, Jim
Steven Spielmann
Steven Spielmann
Jonathan, if it helps you avoid aggravation, you have sufficient intellectual resources to construct various ways in which I might take the bait offered in your reply. I suggest you pick one which makes me look especially obtuse and you especially clever, and bask in the warm glow of another well-deserved internet victory.
Jonathan Loesberg
Jonathan Loesberg
Now it's just piling on.
Steven, in your case there was a real issue there.
Steven, in your case there was a real issue there.
Florida Jim
Florida Jim
A tip of the hat to you, my friend; 'best backhand on the board.
Best, Jim