NWR: Searching for a College

Bill Lundstrom

Bill Lundstrom

Bill Lundstrom
So, my daughter is a junior in high school and we have begun looking at colleges. I have no idea what i am doing.

I thought I may ask/plead for some advice here because so many of you (or it seems like anyway )are in academia. And i kind of trust you guys, even though I've only met a couple of you in person.(pleasant experiences actually)

I feel like i did when i first started getting interested in wine. I read, tasted, talked to people (no internet then)and the more i learned the more i realized how little i actually knew. kind of like tackling burgundy or german wine labels. or trying to figure out what natural wine really means.

it's just that it is so expensive you feel like you dont want to make a mistake in selection (kind of like buying burgundy).

here are few things that keep me up at night...

my daughter is interested in languages and international business studies. are there schools that are better at this than others? i am sure there are but, how do you know they are better and worth the extra money over in state tuition at our state university.

if your state university is considered a good to very good academic institution, and has in state tution that is about $20k less yearly than other options, does it still make sense to look at other schools? if so,
what are the most important things to look for in secondary education?

If you are not going to get into an ivy league school (or one of that stature)how do you know what sets university "a" apart from college "b"?

i have a million other questions but any insights you can share with the above queries are greatly appreciated. thanks for listening.
 
Bill,
What sort of learner is your daughter? Does she learn well in self-guided study, or does she desire and need 1-on-1 contact with teachers? There are certainly schools that are better at the two subjects you mention, but how certain are you that she'll maintain those interests in the long term?

You're in Philadelphia IIRC, so you're talking about Penn State, which is indeed a good institution. Do not put much faith in the various rankings you'll find either online or in magazines as they're mostly beauty contests that rely on their public image and reputation more than any hard data. Moreover, many schools' reputations are dictated by their research, which has absolutely ZERO to do with the quality of teaching.

Here are some general observations:

1. Ivy League schools are not worth the tariff unless money is no object for you. Yes, an Ivy League degree looks good on a resume or c.v., but you'll get a better undergraduate education elsewhere. If she's a good student, she can go to an Ivy for graduate studies to bolster that resume.

2. One of the biggest factors in my view is size of the institution. At a big, public school you'll be one of many students with little chance for interaction with the faculty and may sometimes not even be taught by faculty. Smaller schools cost more money (they're almost always private) but you get much more personal attention and more emphasis on the quality of the teaching.

3. Good instruction in languages can be found at most Liberal Arts colleges, but International Business is a bit specialized and probably more profitably pursued at the graduate/professional level.

4. Have her choose a handful to a dozen institutions whose reputations and/or websites look good to her. Make sure that at least one of them is a "fallback" institution that you're very confident she'll get into. Make sure at least one is a "dream" institution that she'd love to get into regardless of cost. Apply to them all.

5. Make a judgment about her strength as an applicant. How good is her GPA? How has she done at the SAT? (at this stage, more likely is how did she do on the PSAT?) Make your own judgment about what institutions should be easy to get into.

6. Don't reject institutions on cost. If she's admitted, they'll make financial aid available, probably in the form of loans. If her top choice is out of reach financially, see what they can do to make it affordable for her.

7. Ask questions. What are their class sizes like? Who teaches their classes (tenure track faculty vs. "visiting assistant professors" [academic temp workers] vs. instructors [same thing] vs. grad students) Where do their graduates go to? What is their attrition rate?

8. Talk to people in the field(s). Do you know anybody working in areas close to her interests? If so, see what they have to say about good schools.

I'm no expert on her areas of study, but I'd bet that there will be a few schools fairly local to you that would fit the bill. A place like Georgetown would be an obvious choice, but there will be many other decent choices, too.

Good luck!
Mark Lipton
 
mark- thanks! your insights are very helpful.

my daughter is pretty much a self learner and serious student. she won't get into an ivy however.

based on where i dine out and shop at farm markets you would think i am from philly but i am actually from delaware. so we have university of delaware as an in state option.
 
originally posted by MLipton:
Some questions
Bill,
What sort of learner is your daughter? Does she learn well in self-guided study, or does she desire and need 1-on-1 contact with teachers? There are certainly schools that are better at the two subjects you mention, but how certain are you that she'll maintain those interests in the long term?
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An appropriate undergrad experience for international business IMO would involve a lot of "international" and a bit of "business." So much easier to do business with people when you know a bit about their history, culture, and language.

Do not put much faith in the various rankings you'll find either online or in magazines as they're mostly beauty contests that rely on their public image and reputation more than any hard data.
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A search will reveal a thread about the methodological fatuity of these things, and ML is right.

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winedisorder.com

Here are some general observations:

1. Ivy League schools are not worth the tariff
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Are you kidding? You can coast for a lifetime with one of those sheepskins.

But otherwise, ML gives solid advice. One item I'd add is that you might help your daughter try to figure out what her fellow students might be like at any particular institution. I learned as much in college from my peers as I did from my classes, and it broadened my narrow suburban mind quite a bit.
 
originally posted by SFJoe:
But otherwise, ML gives solid advice. One item I'd add is that you might help your daughter try to figure out what her fellow students might be like at any particular institution. I learned as much in college from my peers as I did from my classes, and it broadened my narrow suburban mind quite a bit.
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a great point. mirrors my experience.

while i am at it..she will have an IB (international baccalaureate) diploma. does this carry any weight? it apparantly will allow for a "weighted gpa" something else i dont understand.
 
Bill, Our daughter was/is very qualified. We told her she could go anywhere she wanted except (i) a particular very large school and (ii) anywhere in California.

She ended up at Vanderbilt which was perfect for her.

I recommend you talk to your daughter's school counselor who should be able to give you guidance with her specific talent(s) in mind. Then contact/visit as many attractive candidate campuses (campii?) as you can.

The process is VERY specious so it is better to apply to lots of places that are of interest, especially if they take the common application.

. . . . . Pete
 
originally posted by MLipton:
Some questionsBill,
1. Ivy League schools are not worth the tariff unless money is no object for you. Yes, an Ivy League degree looks good on a resume or c.v., but you'll get a better undergraduate education elsewhere. If she's a good student, she can go to an Ivy for graduate studies to bolster that resume.
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I have to disagree.

Generally speaking, Ivy League schools (and peers) offer more generous aid packages so you tend to come out with a lower debt burden than other privates.

I'm not sure what 'better education' means, but if you could truly figure out ahead of time the perfect environment for a particular 18 year old to blossom then you'd be a genius. For the most part it's a crapshoot so I say all else equal go for the credential with the most status. That is what you're paying for. Not the 'education'.

Of course you want to avoid environments that will be toxic and cause problems for the child. So if you have an idea of what environment is best suited for the child, focus on that. But within that category of fit it is safer to go for more prestige.

Big state schools (I teach at one and got my PhD at one, although undergrad was Ivy) are fine if you know what you're doing. But undergrad is about more than just finding the cheapest way to get into a great grad school. It's the bedrock of your professional career and the foundation for your professional and social networks. State schools don't top my list in this area.

That said, it's all about what options you have and also trying not to overthink the unknowable!
 
UD isn't so large and plenty of out of staters pay private school rates to attend, so it's likely a relative bargain. It's also instate and very nearby which is somewhat at odds with wanting to do international, probably better to go someplace less familiar.

Why does she want to do international business?

Will she resent your polling us on her future?
 
I recently (haha) graduated and I'm with Joe - peers are very important. I got into wine through a peer. I got my previous jobs (management consulting, investment banking) through peers. I learnt more from them than I ever did from attending lectures (total: 2 in 3 years of undergrad, 1 as a grad student).

If she has an IB and is interested in international business, she should consider going overseas, or going to a school which has strong links. Most UK universities are terrible for financial aid, though, and I would argue that the dropoff from the better universities there is steeper than in the US.

I would also add that I observed a marked difference between state school (and these were pretty good state schools - UMich, UCLA, Berkeley) and lib arts/Ivy graduates, both in the grad programme and at work. It's not a perfect correlation, and there are plenty of confounding factors, of course, but outcomes were typically better for the lib arts/Ivy folks.
 
What Mark said and what SFJoe said about what Mark said: an Ivy League education isn't so much about the education as it is about who you went to school with. If you go undergrad it is a lifetime's worth of contacts. I did Yale grad, which is not the same, but, anyway, those 4 letters shout off the page at folks.

The only thing I would add new to the conversation is to also keep an eye open for other sources of funding (e.g., in NY, there are Regents scholarships which provide money if you attend a school in NY).
 
I kind of want to combine above statements from a few people and say that top liberal arts colleges combine the cachet of the name/powerful alumni network with tip-top academics (and accessible professors), along with mostly great peers. I went somewhere where tenure was largely based on student evaluations for teaching, as opposed to publication. One could sense the dedication to good classes, there. I am still friends with three of my undergraduate professors, over a decade later. I still remember many classes I took in subjects I did not pursue more than the class; they were memorable and important intellectual experiences, and I retain that knowledge.
 
originally posted by Rahsaan:

I have to disagree.

Generally speaking, Ivy League schools (and peers) offer more generous aid packages so you tend to come out with a lower debt burden than other privates.
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That's fine, Rahsaan, and I'm glad that you've weighed in, as you're probably closer to the area of her interest than anyone else on this bored. You're also a lot closer to your BS studies than I am, so I will defer to your judgment regarding the financial implications of study at an Ivy League institution. I'd certainly say that, on the basis of my own experience and those of others that I know, that undergrads at several of the Ivy League institutions (Columbia, Harvard, Yale and Penn) get no better treatment -- and often get worse -- than students at "lesser" institutions. It's important, however, to distiguish Brown and Dartmouth (and also, perhaps, Princeton) which have a much greater focus on undergrad education.

I'm not sure what 'better education' means, but if you could truly figure out ahead of time the perfect environment for a particular 18 year old to blossom then you'd be a genius. For the most part it's a crapshoot so I say all else equal go for the credential with the most status. That is what you're paying for. Not the 'education'.
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As I prefaced my response with, what sort of learner you have dictates in large part what sort of institution you should seek out. However, I will also note that, of the 50+ faculty in my department, none of my colleagues nor I attended a large, public institution as an undergraduate. Make of that what you will.

Big state schools (I teach at one and got my PhD at one, although undergrad was Ivy) are fine if you know what you're doing. But undergrad is about more than just finding the cheapest way to get into a great grad school. It's the bedrock of your professional career and the foundation for your professional and social networks. State schools don't top my list in this area.

That said, it's all about what options you have and also trying not to overthink the unknowable!
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Big State schools can be suitable for self-directed learners who will get increased opportunity for contact with graduate students and research groups. They can also take graduate classes if they so desire. However, in my experience, most students are better served by smaller institutions with a greater focus on undergraduate studies and smaller class sizes. As you say, though, it is all a bit of a crapshoot and we just do the best we can to find a decent place for our kids to go to school. Overthinking the unknowable is, as you say, an institutional hazard.

Mark Lipton
 
originally posted by Sharon Bowman:
I kind of want to combine above statements from a few people and say that top liberal arts colleges combine the cachet of the name/powerful alumni network with tip-top academics (and accessible professors), along with mostly great peers.
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Though you have to weigh this against the risk of frostbite.
 
originally posted by Sharon Bowman:
powerful alumni network
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I would say that for me personally this has meant very little. I have great friends and very smart people in my life from my undergraduate experience, but none of them have put me in a job.
 
originally posted by SFJoe:
originally posted by Sharon Bowman:
powerful alumni network
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I would say that for me personally this has meant very little. I have great friends and very smart people in my life from my undergraduate experience, but none of them have put me in a job.
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... as opposed to those who went to grad school with you, who have done so much for your career!

Mark Lipton
 
originally posted by MLipton:
of the 50+ faculty in my department, none of my colleagues or I attended a large, public institution as an undergraduate. Make of that what you will.
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Extremely interesting.

I don't have a ready interpretation, but quite an anecdote.
 
originally posted by SFJoe:
originally posted by Sharon Bowman:
powerful alumni network
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I would say that for me personally this has meant very little. I have great friends and very smart people in my life from my undergraduate experience, but none of them have put me in a job.
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But can you crash in their "club"?

No, yours being a larger institution, it might be worth more for the name (we await your inclusion on the Wiki page of illustrious alums); my liberal arts college was smaller and seems to be more clannish, tighter, helping-er.

I did work for a year in an improbable (improbably) well-paid job after a chance run-in at Grand Central Station with one former of the frozen north, a few years ago.

I've also given tips, pointers, and nudges to young'uns bent on Paris. Though as self-employed, all I could offer was to intern them. (Riiiiight. Well, my blog always needs commentators, as the Brits would say.)
 
originally posted by MLipton:


... as opposed to those who went to grad school with you, who have done so much for your career!
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Actually, much more the case.

Of course, I'm still waiting for your contribution.
 
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