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Sticker shock
- Thread starter MLipton
- Start date
Christian Miller (CMM)
Christian Miller
Burgundy Grand Cru is on its way to becoming the Bugatti or Lamborghini of the wine world.originally posted by MLipton:
Sticker shockI just saw an offer for the 2016 Hudelot-Noellat wines. $700 for the RSV and $750 for the Richebourg? Uh... right.
Mark Lipton
Keith Levenberg
Keith Levenberg
I think they've been in that zone for awhile. Obviously not even tempting for me at that level, but I could justify those tabs a whole lot easier than I can justify the $100-$300 tabs we're seeing on a lot of village wines and 1er crus that were sub-$100 just a couple years ago.
robert ames
robert ames
originally posted by Christian Miller (CMM):
Burgundy Grand Cru is on its way to becoming the Bugatti or Lamborghini of the wine world.originally posted by MLipton:
Sticker shockI just saw an offer for the 2016 Hudelot-Noellat wines. $700 for the RSV and $750 for the Richebourg? Uh... right.
Mark Lipton
and first growth bordeaux are luxury yachts?
Keith Levenberg
Keith Levenberg
Generally speaking, first-growth Bordeaux is a better value than equivalent Burgundy right now for the first time in a long time.
robert ames
robert ames
originally posted by Keith Levenberg:
Generally speaking, first-growth Bordeaux is a better value than equivalent Burgundy right now for the first time in a long time.
while i don't have the experience to discuss value, first growth bordeaux kinda starts at 4 figures. and the numbers that i see, say le pin, is gonna run you around 5 grand.
Jayson Cohen
Jayson Cohen
originally posted by robert ames:
originally posted by Keith Levenberg:
Generally speaking, first-growth Bordeaux is a better value than equivalent Burgundy right now for the first time in a long time.
while i don't have the experience to discuss value, first growth bordeaux kinda starts at 4 figures. and the numbers that i see, say le pin, is gonna run you around 5 grand.
Not sure where you are looking. You can get most first growth Bordeaux, Cheval Blanc, and Ausone for less than the cost of DRC RC, La Tache, Richebourg, and RSV, Rousseau C and C CdB, Roumier Musigny and Amoureuses, and the like. At the next level down the relative value of Bordeaux over Burgundy is even better.
Wines like Petrus, Le Pin, and Lafleur are a pricing oddity but still often cheaper than Burg counterparts above. Top Burgundy pricing over the last three years in particular has risen at an astonishing rate.
Jonathan Loesberg
Jonathan Loesberg
Are there really people in the world who can afford to buy first growth bordeaux who blink at the price of DRC or vice versa?
Jayson Cohen
Jayson Cohen
originally posted by Jonathan Loesberg:
Are there really people in the world who can afford to buy first growth bordeaux who blink at the price of DRC or vice versa?
This is an academic discussion for me now. But if I wanted to splurge, I could buy certain vintages of first growths at significantly lower pricing than DRC RC or La Tache. So yes.
I agree for some people who are wealthy and price-insensitive, the difference is probably meaningless.
Jonathan Loesberg
Jonathan Loesberg
I guess I could buy a bottle of a first growth or DRC without immediately going broke, but I find the prices beyond unreal. In order for me not to care, I really think I would have to be making 7 or 8 figures a year and then I doubt I would care about the price difference. I rather think these wines are now for people who buy yachts without asking what the price is.
Jeff Grossman
Jeff Grossman
Blame the Internet. One good snapshot of DRC on Instagram and everybody wants one.
Keith Levenberg
Keith Levenberg
Might want to check wine-searcher...originally posted by robert ames:
originally posted by Keith Levenberg:
Generally speaking, first-growth Bordeaux is a better value than equivalent Burgundy right now for the first time in a long time.
while i don't have the experience to discuss value, first growth bordeaux kinda starts at 4 figures. and the numbers that i see, say le pin, is gonna run you around 5 grand.
Haut Brion
2015 - from $540
2014 - from $370
2012 - from $420
Lafite Rothschild
2015 - from $575
2014 - from $600
Who cares about Le Pin?
2015 Vieux Chateau Certan - from $335
2015 Trotanoy - from $280
2015 La Conseillante - from $160
Nobody's saying any of these are bargains, but all of us need to enjoy an epic wine from time to time, and if you're sitting on a stash of Verset or Juge you can't bring yourself to sell, you're not allowed to complain about $400 Haut-Brion.
Meanwhile, since DRC was mentioned...
2015 DRC Echezeaux - from $1,800
2014 DRC Echezeaux - from $1,650
2015 DRC La Tache - from $5,400
2014 DRC La Tache - from $3,200
So, you can buy almost a whole case of 2015 Lafite or Haut-Brion for the price of a bottle of La Tache.
Granted, DRC is in a class of its own. Plenty other burgundies with first growth quality and cachet that don't run that high. Still, scroll back up to the top post re: $700 Hudelot-Noellat. Are those Haut-Brions looking a bit more tempting yet?
Oswaldo Costa
Oswaldo Costa
Beautiful new oak barrels are expensive.
Jonathan Loesberg
Jonathan Loesberg
originally posted by Keith Levenberg:
Might want to check wine-searcher...originally posted by robert ames:
originally posted by Keith Levenberg:
Generally speaking, first-growth Bordeaux is a better value than equivalent Burgundy right now for the first time in a long time.
while i don't have the experience to discuss value, first growth bordeaux kinda starts at 4 figures. and the numbers that i see, say le pin, is gonna run you around 5 grand.
Haut Brion
2015 - from $540
2014 - from $370
2012 - from $420
Lafite Rothschild
2015 - from $575
2014 - from $600
So, you can buy almost a whole case of 2015 Lafite or Haut-Brion for the price of a bottle of La Tache.
Granted, DRC is in a class of its own. Plenty other burgundies with first growth quality and cachet that don't run that high. Still, scroll back up to the top post re: $700 Hudelot-Noellat. Are those Haut-Brions looking a bit more tempting yet?
No, not really. But I'd be more than happy to drink some of yours.
Christian Miller (CMM)
Christian Miller
Yes, could be a binary function, rather than a demand curve, once you get to a certain level of wealth; tipped mainly by their level of interest in wine.originally posted by Jayson Cohen:
originally posted by Jonathan Loesberg:
Are there really people in the world who can afford to buy first growth bordeaux who blink at the price of DRC or vice versa?
This is an academic discussion for me now. But if I wanted to splurge, I could buy certain vintages of first growths at significantly lower pricing than DRC RC or La Tache. So yes.
I agree for some people who are wealthy and price-insensitive, the difference is probably meaningless.
Christian Miller (CMM)
Christian Miller
originally posted by robert ames:
originally posted by Christian Miller (CMM):
Burgundy Grand Cru is on its way to becoming the Bugatti or Lamborghini of the wine world.originally posted by MLipton:
Sticker shockI just saw an offer for the 2016 Hudelot-Noellat wines. $700 for the RSV and $750 for the Richebourg? Uh... right.
Mark Lipton
and first growth bordeaux are luxury yachts?
Or Porsches maybe.
Napa Valley Cabs could be Corvettes of various levels of customization/aftermarket versions. Highly regarded in the home country, but less universal in appeal.
KJ Vintners Reserve Chardonnay is a Toyota Corolla.
Chateau Chalon is a Lotus Super Seven. Or maybe a Morgan?
I could do this all day, with time for arguments.
originally posted by Keith Levenberg:
So, you can buy almost a whole case of 2015 Lafite or Haut-Brion for the price of a bottle of La Tache.
Yeah, Bordeaux is cheap. And if anyone can afford a second house, they can surely afford to buy these wines without breaking the bank.
Ken Schramm
Ken Schramm
originally posted by Oswaldo Costa:
Beautiful new oak barrels are expensive.
I ran the math on that the other day, and even at $2K/225 L barrel of premium Limousin or Vosges oak, the cost per bottle comes out to about $6.67/750 ml bottle. Pretty easy to hide in your $540 price point. We can afford that, and we're a crappy little meadery.
Oswaldo Costa
Oswaldo Costa
originally posted by Ken Schramm:
originally posted by Oswaldo Costa:
Beautiful new oak barrels are expensive.
I ran the math on that the other day, and even at $2K/225 L barrel of premium Limousin or Vosges oak, the cost per bottle comes out to about $6.67/750 ml bottle. Pretty easy to hide in your $540 price point. We can afford that, and we're a crappy little meadery.
Without agreeing with the end of your statement, this info is much appreciated. I'm surprised it's so cheap to have your wine flavored and softened.
originally posted by MLipton:
Sticker shockI just saw an offer for the 2016 Hudelot-Noellat wines. $700 for the RSV and $750 for the Richebourg? Uh... right.
Mark Lipton
This is the flip side of internet shopping, there won't be the same values that used to be out there for wines that gain a following. There will continue to be downward pressure on wines that are either out of favor or true commodities.
Back when people shopped at a local (or regional) wine shop, the proprietor generally wouldn't take a big mark-up on highly sought after items and put them out to the public. They would offer them to their best clients who bought across the board form them at the usual mark-up (and with the usual discount). Nobody wants this kind of arrangement anymore. We tried this out.
Sometime around 15-20 years ago when things switched to email and then e-commerce what folks started to do with Burgundy is to price the Villages wines (remember, allocations generally come as an all-or-none parcel) at or very near cost, do a lighter retail mark-up on lieu-dits and 1er Crus and then price the top 1er Cru and Grand Cru to market. When I was first confronted with this and asked why, I was told that big, national Burgundy buyers only want he top wines and are willing to pay higher prices to not have to take the other wines. This is one of the reasons that so many of us could get cheap Roumier Chambolle and Mugneret Vosne for so many years. Returning to your offer, and I got the same one, the Villages wines are priced at what I think is pretty close to cost and everything else is working more or less like I outlined above.
What people get confused about is the term efficiency. Efficiency doesn't have to do with driving down the price of all goods, though it often does. What it means is that the standard deviation around the true price of something is shrunk. We've certainly seen that for lots of wines and the market for sought after Burgundy is one of the more efficient markets. (Bordeaux is a not very efficient market if you look at the wide range of prices.)
About half of my cellar is made up of wines that are more and more difficult for me to open because the opportunity cost of opening a bottle versus a weekend trip to NYC or a flight to Paris. This is where it really stings as I have never thought of myself as a "collector" but rather as someone who cellars wine as part of a general epicurean outlook.
So what to do? If I sell that half, I'll never be able to buy them again, or if I do, I'll never be able to get the provenance like what I have. That's the other thing, IME, nobody gives a shit about provenance. Despite the fact that for most of the wines (regrettably not all) in my cellar, I purchased them through the authorized channels and I am the only owner they've ever had, I will not be able to realize any premium over what the label itself generates.
Anyway, there is a much broader array of really exciting and delicious wine out there than ever before from all sorts of diverse places. This is all late stage capitalism BS, but it would be nice to be able to enjoy a nice Burgundy(or Northern Rhône) without all self-inflicted whinging.