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NWR: Searching for a College
- Thread starter Bill Lundstrom
- Start date
Cole Kendall
Cole Kendall
I'm a bit late to the party but in another life I taught IB at a variety of mostly fairly large state schools and now sort of do IB and can toss in a few points:
Don't major in undergraduate business. I highly recommend studying something else as an undergrad and then if you really want to do business get an MBA. Undergrad business programs tend to be full of students whose parents threatened not to pay for college if they didn't do something useful and many of them have little interest in the subjects. Far better to learn a language, some history and perhaps some science or social science and then do business later.
Once in my career I got one client/job opportunity from an undergraduate classmate (oddly enough at a firm run by a fellow alum a few years ahead of both of us). The proprietor was an art history major and my friend majored in Chinese/Asian studies.
Do take advantage of study abroad programs. I went to Italy for a semester and much of my current business in Italy is greatly aided by the time I spent in Rome as a junior.
State schools can be a fine place to learn but are not for everyone. But if you do well your first year or two there is still an option to transfer somewhere else. I had a number of students who did quite well but I only taught those who survived the first two years with reasonably good grades.
Please feel free to PM or ask for further advice.
Don't major in undergraduate business. I highly recommend studying something else as an undergrad and then if you really want to do business get an MBA. Undergrad business programs tend to be full of students whose parents threatened not to pay for college if they didn't do something useful and many of them have little interest in the subjects. Far better to learn a language, some history and perhaps some science or social science and then do business later.
Once in my career I got one client/job opportunity from an undergraduate classmate (oddly enough at a firm run by a fellow alum a few years ahead of both of us). The proprietor was an art history major and my friend majored in Chinese/Asian studies.
Do take advantage of study abroad programs. I went to Italy for a semester and much of my current business in Italy is greatly aided by the time I spent in Rome as a junior.
State schools can be a fine place to learn but are not for everyone. But if you do well your first year or two there is still an option to transfer somewhere else. I had a number of students who did quite well but I only taught those who survived the first two years with reasonably good grades.
Please feel free to PM or ask for further advice.
Jonathan Loesberg
Jonathan Loesberg
originally posted by Yule Kim:
My sister loved her small, liberal arts college experience. I was less enthused with my large, research university undergraduate experience. From my conversations with people in my peer group I gather that this trend generally holds true.
Sure, prestige matters, but Amherst and Swarthmore aren't going to be stains on anyone's CV and alums I know from these schools still enthuse about their time there. My Harvard and Yale friends, in contrast, seemed to hold far less fond memories.
And if Amherst is not doable, what about schools like Pomona, Oberlin, or my sister's alma mater, Bowdoin? Plenty of great schools where you can get a quality education and develop close relationships with both profs and fellow students.
Yule's post, which I take to second my remarks about looking for schools with small classes, raises another issue. The private schoolshe mentions, all excellent ones, are also all isolated ones. This will be a matter more for your daughter than for you, but the difference between urban campuses and ones isolated in small college towns is one that will be important to her experience. There are things to be said for both kinds of experiences, but you really will want to consider that as you visit. This is old news, of course, but it turns out for new students still to be news.
originally posted by Cole Kendall:
Don't major in undergraduate business. I highly recommend studying something else as an undergrad and then if you really want to do business get an MBA. Undergrad business programs tend to be full of students whose parents threatened not to pay for college if they didn't do something useful and many of them have little interest in the subjects. Far better to learn a language, some history and perhaps some science or social science and then do business later.
I totally agree.
Tom Glasgow
Thomas W Glasgow
No sense paying to study the same material twice.originally posted by SFJoe:
originally posted by Cole Kendall:
Don't major in undergraduate business. I highly recommend studying something else as an undergrad and then if you really want to do business get an MBA. Undergrad business programs tend to be full of students whose parents threatened not to pay for college if they didn't do something useful and many of them have little interest in the subjects. Far better to learn a language, some history and perhaps some science or social science and then do business later.
I totally agree.
The thing to remember about modern universities is that they are Brands. This is especially true of the Ivies (even Cornell).
To the extent that other people are influenced by the marketing, the brand can matter and open doors. I think this is true. I wish I could find a link, but there was a study a few years back that showed that after correcting for parents SES, there was no net gain given by an Ivy League diploma (it may have included Stanford and others).
I've got to say, I'm really glad I'm not in your position because it seems almost impossible to make a good decision.
The best advice I've seen here is to really be honest about what type of learner your daughter is. If she is self motivated, the kind of girl that would go to office hours, etc. there is no place she won't do well. If she is shy, or not assertive, a smaller, more student focused environment (read liberal arts college) may be better. But don't be mistaken, that sort of education will in no way prepare her for any type of career success. It can lay a foundation, but it won't open any doors.
The people that I know who have done the best in "business", international or otherwise, have generally come from somewhere else, usually with some sort of technical background (engineering, science, math, etc.).
Not to put too fine a point on it, but I think that for the middle class, studying the humanities is (generally) not going to work out particularly well. The social sciences might fare better, but generally with an advanced degree where you tend to pick up technical skills (experimental design, statistics).
My parents are fantastic and I love them, but telling me that I should study whatever I was passionate about and that a career would follow was the worst advice anyone has ever given me, bordering on disastrous. I'm not sure that studying language is going to put her on a track for a glamorous career flying from Frankfurt, to Milan, to London making "deals".
Another thing to remember is that university is about a lot of other things than a career path. Hell, she might decide she wants to be a marine biologist.
I am the product of large R1 public universities. I loved it. There is something for everyone. But I'm the guy who will went to office hours all the time. I also really loved school, but was a mediocre high school student (thank god for standardized tests).
I sit on the SAB for a company founded by a college buddy and have done some consulting work with him, but he dropped out.
IMO, make sure that your daughter is invested in the process and motivated by it.
To the extent that other people are influenced by the marketing, the brand can matter and open doors. I think this is true. I wish I could find a link, but there was a study a few years back that showed that after correcting for parents SES, there was no net gain given by an Ivy League diploma (it may have included Stanford and others).
I've got to say, I'm really glad I'm not in your position because it seems almost impossible to make a good decision.
The best advice I've seen here is to really be honest about what type of learner your daughter is. If she is self motivated, the kind of girl that would go to office hours, etc. there is no place she won't do well. If she is shy, or not assertive, a smaller, more student focused environment (read liberal arts college) may be better. But don't be mistaken, that sort of education will in no way prepare her for any type of career success. It can lay a foundation, but it won't open any doors.
The people that I know who have done the best in "business", international or otherwise, have generally come from somewhere else, usually with some sort of technical background (engineering, science, math, etc.).
Not to put too fine a point on it, but I think that for the middle class, studying the humanities is (generally) not going to work out particularly well. The social sciences might fare better, but generally with an advanced degree where you tend to pick up technical skills (experimental design, statistics).
My parents are fantastic and I love them, but telling me that I should study whatever I was passionate about and that a career would follow was the worst advice anyone has ever given me, bordering on disastrous. I'm not sure that studying language is going to put her on a track for a glamorous career flying from Frankfurt, to Milan, to London making "deals".
Another thing to remember is that university is about a lot of other things than a career path. Hell, she might decide she wants to be a marine biologist.
I am the product of large R1 public universities. I loved it. There is something for everyone. But I'm the guy who will went to office hours all the time. I also really loved school, but was a mediocre high school student (thank god for standardized tests).
I sit on the SAB for a company founded by a college buddy and have done some consulting work with him, but he dropped out.
IMO, make sure that your daughter is invested in the process and motivated by it.
Ian Fitzsimmons
Ian Fitzsimmons
Socio-Economic Status?
Cole Kendall
Cole Kendall
originally posted by VLM:
Not to put too fine a point on it, but I think that for the middle class, studying the humanities is (generally) not going to work out particularly well. The social sciences might fare better, but generally with an advanced degree where you tend to pick up technical skills (experimental design, statistics).
My parents are fantastic and I love them, but telling me that I should study whatever I was passionate about and that a career would follow was the worst advice anyone has ever given me, bordering on disastrous. I'm not sure that studying language is going to put her on a track for a glamorous career flying from Frankfurt, to Milan, to London making "deals".
I am in general agreement with VLM but my emphasis is that if she is excited by statistics or the like then that is the way to go. If not, then do what she is excited about. As I noted above, the guy who runs the equity fund I work with did Art History and the woman who got me the gig did Chinese. Both later got MBAs. Yes, many English majors do nothing in life (though they should understand where to put commas) but to me the key is the fit between student and major (or the faculty in the major subject). A motivated student who learns how to think hard about the subject, whatever it is, will do just fine.
Mike Evans
Mike Evans
I'm almost 20 years removed from my undergrad experience, but one issue I haven't seen mentioned is the importance of visiting campuses she might be interested in. For me, for example, visits led me to choose not to even apply to the school I was previously certain was my first choice, and moved another school up from a maybe to an overwhelming first choice. Reading guides can give a sense of what the size of student body, climate, campus culture, and local entertainment and cultural opportunities are like, but are no substitute for first hand observation.
Also, keep in mind that not all public schools fit the large state research institution stereotype. My alma mater, William & Mary, for example, has more in common with many private schools than it does with most state schools (smaller enrollment, liberal arts focus, commitment to undergrad teaching, etc.). It can be a mistake to get too attached to a public/private dichotomy, because the differences among the institutions in each category often overwhelm the significance of that single commonality.
Also, keep in mind that not all public schools fit the large state research institution stereotype. My alma mater, William & Mary, for example, has more in common with many private schools than it does with most state schools (smaller enrollment, liberal arts focus, commitment to undergrad teaching, etc.). It can be a mistake to get too attached to a public/private dichotomy, because the differences among the institutions in each category often overwhelm the significance of that single commonality.
Jeff Grossman
Jeff Grossman
I disagree with a lot of what VLM says. The Middle Class spends a third -- or more -- of its life at work. Best to like it, at least somewhat.
Jeff Grossman
Jeff Grossman
Yes, that is what it means to "beggar" a question.originally posted by Ian Fitzsimmons:
Then, that I've used my premise as proof of my proposition? I still don't see it.
I'm not sure about Sharon's call, either. There are plenty of self-aware prestige seekers, though I will admit that the unconscious ones are funnier.
Jonathan Loesberg
Jonathan Loesberg
I disagree with VLM and agree with Cole, which means I don't think they agree as much as Cole thinks they do: it is more important to learn to think and think well then it is to learn something "useful." And that will follow from studying something of interest to them, even philosophy, art history or English. In fact, VLM's parents gave him good advice. As for livelihood, even in this lousy economy, those of my best students who are smart enough not to go on for their Ph.Ds are all gainfully employed, and usually shortly after commencement. They may not make bundles of money, but they are in positions of beginning responsibility. Of course, those who go on to various non-humanities grad studies do better, but their undergrad degrees don't get in the way of that either.
Tom Glasgow
Thomas W Glasgow
I think you're misrepresenting what the VLM said. Where did he suggest taking a job/career that you won't like?originally posted by Jeff Grossman:
I disagree with a lot of what VLM says. The Middle Class spends a third -- or more -- of its life at work. Best to like it, at least somewhat.
originally posted by Ian Fitzsimmons:
Second, does the young person in question want to be in a position to 'coast' on school brand and contacts, or might these things ultimately distract from substantial interests, and hamper from bringing forth best efforts. Prestige can grease your rails, true enough, but it can also blur your vision.
This notion of people 'coasting' on a prestigious degree doesn't make sense. Have you seen the economy out there? The only people 'coasting' are those who already have insane wealth and for whom university decisions are decidedly not the key to their future life prospects.
That said, sure, if you're not a competitive person then competitive universities may not be for you. Know thyself and find thine nitch.
I have known people who got distracted by all the elite messaging and developed various forms of self-destructive rebellious behavior. Which goes back to the know thyself creed. But no need to make this into a moral issue.
Cole Kendall
Cole Kendall
originally posted by Jonathan Loesberg:
I disagree with VLM and agree with Cole, which means I don't think they agree as much as Cole thinks they do: it is more important to learn to think and think well then it is to learn something "useful." And that will follow from studying something of interest to them, even philosophy, art history or English. In fact, VLM's parents gave him good advice. As for livelihood, even in this lousy economy, those of my best students who are smart enough not to go on for their Ph.Ds are all gainfully employed, and usually shortly after commencement. They may not make bundles of money, but they are in positions of beginning responsibility. Of course, those who go on to various non-humanities grad studies do better, but their undergrad degrees don't get in the way of that either.
As far as I am aware, if you can do the math to become an actuary, and you are happy as an actuary, you will have as assured a future as is possible. Most of us either cannot do the math or are not interested in a career as an actuary. Knowing how to think about something that is "useful" probably leads to a greater likelihood of success than just knowing how to think. But knowing how to think is better than the alternative.
Jeff Grossman
Jeff Grossman
This seems pretty clear: "My parents are fantastic and I love them, but telling me that I should study whatever I was passionate about and that a career would follow was the worst advice anyone has ever given me, bordering on disastrous."originally posted by Tom Glasgow:
I think you're misrepresenting what the VLM said. Where did he suggest taking a job/career that you won't like?originally posted by Jeff Grossman:
I disagree with a lot of what VLM says. The Middle Class spends a third -- or more -- of its life at work. Best to like it, at least somewhat.
Sharon Bowman
Sharon Bowman
It seems like your original response is reversing VLM's logic.
I don't think he's saying that you should do something you don't like. I think he's saying that studying "what you are passionate about" won't give you a well-paid job. You could, theoretically, like many other things or even study something that isn't your number one passion and still find a profession you take pleasure in.
Many of us here are passionate about wine, but what percentage of us do it for a living? And for those of us not working in wine, do we have jobs we at least somewhat like?
originally posted by Jeff Grossman:
I disagree with a lot of what VLM says. The Middle Class spends a third -- or more -- of its life at work. Best to like it, at least somewhat.
I don't think he's saying that you should do something you don't like. I think he's saying that studying "what you are passionate about" won't give you a well-paid job. You could, theoretically, like many other things or even study something that isn't your number one passion and still find a profession you take pleasure in.
Many of us here are passionate about wine, but what percentage of us do it for a living? And for those of us not working in wine, do we have jobs we at least somewhat like?
originally posted by Sharon Bowman:
It seems like your original response is reversing VLM's logic.
originally posted by Jeff Grossman:
I disagree with a lot of what VLM says. The Middle Class spends a third -- or more -- of its life at work. Best to like it, at least somewhat.
I don't think he's saying that you should do something you don't like. I think he's saying that studying "what you are passionate about" won't give you a well-paid job. You could, theoretically, like many other things or even study something that isn't your number one passion and still find a profession you take pleasure in.
Many of us here are passionate about wine, but what percentage of us do it for a living? And for those of us not working in wine, do we have jobs we at least somewhat like?
Thanks Sharon.
I'm not saying that people should necessarily get "useful" degrees. What I'm saying is that having a great undergrad experience studying comparative literature at a liberal arts college is most likely not going result in a straightforward career. If throwing down $200K is a burden for you, then you should consider that.
My parents were giving me great advice, for their generation. My father got a PhD in history and ended up as a top executive at IBM. That doesn't really happen anymore, at least not for kids from middle class backgrounds (if you have the right connections, well, anything is possible).
I'm in agreement with Prof. Loesberg that critical thinking skills are of the utmost importance.
I don't think there are any degrees that offer a guarantee of lucrative, lifetime work. As in-demand as statisticians are right now, that could (and I think will) change in 10 years.
This is all very unpredictable and things are moving so fast that it's hard to make such seemingly important decisions based on the facts at hand.
As many of the folks here have said, the most important thing is for you and your daughter to find a match for her. What she wants socially, emotionally, and intellectually from a university (or college) experience.
Also, pay attention to stereotypes of universities and their students. They are true.
Ian Fitzsimmons
Ian Fitzsimmons
originally posted by Mike Evans:
I'm almost 20 years removed from my undergrad experience, but one issue I haven't seen mentioned is the importance of visiting campuses she might be interested in. [...]
I mentioned this, fwiw.
originally posted by Jeff Grossman:
Yes, that is what it means to "beggar" a question.originally posted by Ian Fitzsimmons:
Then, that I've used my premise as proof of my proposition? I still don't see it.
I'm not sure about Sharon's call, either. There are plenty of self-aware prestige seekers, though I will admit that the unconscious ones are funnier.
Having re-read, I think my first defending point, which says the university environment might not be optimally congenial, doesn't support my original statement, which is that elite membership could be an impediment after graduation. This might be what Sharon was picking up on.
originally posted by Rahsaan:
originally posted by Ian Fitzsimmons:
Second, does the young person in question want to be in a position to 'coast' on school brand and contacts, or might these things ultimately distract from substantial interests, and hamper from bringing forth best efforts. Prestige can grease your rails, true enough, but it can also blur your vision.
This notion of people 'coasting' on a prestigious degree doesn't make sense. Have you seen the economy out there? The only people 'coasting' are those who already have insane wealth and for whom university decisions are decidedly not the key to their future life prospects.
I borrowed Joe's usage of this expression, feel free to pick nits about it with him. But I don't think he meant it in a strictly literal sense, and it seems apt enough.
That said, sure, if you're not a competitive person then competitive universities may not be for you. Know thyself and find thine nitch.
'Niche?' All universities are competitive, to varying degrees. But, yes, knowing yourself is the key idea here.
I have known people who got distracted by all the elite messaging and developed various forms of self-destructive rebellious behavior. Which goes back to the know thyself creed. But no need to make this into a moral issue.
I'm inclined to agree and don't believe I've moralized the issue here. You can also be distracted by 'elite messaging' (I think) without becoming self-destructive and rebellious.
I think you should study whatever you want in undergrad, because the areas that interest you will be the areas you get the best grades.
Then, do on campus recruiting and get a job at a consulting firm or some hedge fund. I dont't think undergrad major matters as much as GPA. (With the exception of med school).
Then, do on campus recruiting and get a job at a consulting firm or some hedge fund. I dont't think undergrad major matters as much as GPA. (With the exception of med school).